PDA

View Full Version : Track premises age limits



Brooks Gremmels
04-09-2003, 12:07 PM
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events. If a particular track has its own age criteria, their rules will superceed those of the CMRA. ALL motorized pit vehicles must have the CMRA member's racing number clearly marked on the vehicle. Please don't put your child or those charged with enforcing this rule in the awkward position of having to deal with it.
Riders of any age on bikes that are seen speeding above an estimated five (5) miles per hour, performing stoppies or wheelies or any other such behavior will be in the position of potentially losing their right to ride in the paddock.
Management at both TWS and Cresson have said that the CMRA is the only organization that lets this type of behavior go on at their facilities. We need everyone's cooperation in seeing that this distinction disappears. It is your club. Thanks.
Brooks

Brooks Gremmels
04-09-2003, 12:07 PM
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events. If a particular track has its own age criteria, their rules will superceed those of the CMRA. ALL motorized pit vehicles must have the CMRA member's racing number clearly marked on the vehicle. Please don't put your child or those charged with enforcing this rule in the awkward position of having to deal with it.
Riders of any age on bikes that are seen speeding above an estimated five (5) miles per hour, performing stoppies or wheelies or any other such behavior will be in the position of potentially losing their right to ride in the paddock.
Management at both TWS and Cresson have said that the CMRA is the only organization that lets this type of behavior go on at their facilities. We need everyone's cooperation in seeing that this distinction disappears. It is your club. Thanks.
Brooks

Beckley Racing
04-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Brooks this may not be a popular move, but it is the correct business descision.

At TWS I spent most of the day in my motorhome nursing a leg injury where I got plenty chances to view some of what has been described. I could not believe the traffic of pit bikes and under age (toddlers) operating motorcycles/4wheelers/scooters and more.
But that was not all the kids fault, the bulk had no parents riding with them.

Also seems as though some adult age racers have a schedule to come in after a race hotrodding in the pit area -stoppies - sliding...... all the above and more. Then their pit help would hop on the bike and go drag race through the pits.

The security at TWS was wore out with it, no wonder.

Most insurance companies have a "hot pit rule" that is restricted to children under 14, this could be the whole fenced in compound at TWS. I can only wager if an insurance risk officer came to TWS the last race there would be stricter policies.

Good to move now on this yourselves rather than have more restrictions put on CMRA by the insurance companies.

Again good move Brooks and the BOD.

seeya in Oak Hill,
Ed Beckley

Beckley Racing
04-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Brooks this may not be a popular move, but it is the correct business descision.

At TWS I spent most of the day in my motorhome nursing a leg injury where I got plenty chances to view some of what has been described. I could not believe the traffic of pit bikes and under age (toddlers) operating motorcycles/4wheelers/scooters and more.
But that was not all the kids fault, the bulk had no parents riding with them.

Also seems as though some adult age racers have a schedule to come in after a race hotrodding in the pit area -stoppies - sliding...... all the above and more. Then their pit help would hop on the bike and go drag race through the pits.

The security at TWS was wore out with it, no wonder.

Most insurance companies have a "hot pit rule" that is restricted to children under 14, this could be the whole fenced in compound at TWS. I can only wager if an insurance risk officer came to TWS the last race there would be stricter policies.

Good to move now on this yourselves rather than have more restrictions put on CMRA by the insurance companies.

Again good move Brooks and the BOD.

seeya in Oak Hill,
Ed Beckley

John Orchard
04-09-2003, 12:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events...</div></div>This actually doesn't affect me directly at all, but surely you mean no one under 12 on pit bikes as opposed to not being allowed into the facility right?

John Orchard
04-09-2003, 12:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events...</div></div>This actually doesn't affect me directly at all, but surely you mean no one under 12 on pit bikes as opposed to not being allowed into the facility right?

m novak
04-09-2003, 01:03 PM
Pit vehicles only right? Otherwise you just eliminated the young riders program you just started, and killed my chances of attending events if I can't bring my son.

m novak
04-09-2003, 01:03 PM
Pit vehicles only right? Otherwise you just eliminated the young riders program you just started, and killed my chances of attending events if I can't bring my son.

David Branyon
04-09-2003, 01:19 PM
Thanks Brooks for the clarification and clear ruling on this issue. Not that I agree with the age limit, but I am pleased to see that y'all have thought it through and come up with a position and clearly stated it. I second John's question re: attending vs. able to ride pit bikes at that age.

As to the other, I would be opposed to not allowing sub-14 year olds into the entire paddock at TWS. We were at one time calling this a family-friendly club, right?

Thanks,

David Branyon
04-09-2003, 01:19 PM
Thanks Brooks for the clarification and clear ruling on this issue. Not that I agree with the age limit, but I am pleased to see that y'all have thought it through and come up with a position and clearly stated it. I second John's question re: attending vs. able to ride pit bikes at that age.

As to the other, I would be opposed to not allowing sub-14 year olds into the entire paddock at TWS. We were at one time calling this a family-friendly club, right?

Thanks,

mcstealth
04-09-2003, 05:02 PM
Of course track management is going to say a statement like, "CMRA is the only one that allows such behavior....." Horse crap. They will say anything to get control over an issue that suits their purposes.

In my opinion.

David

mcstealth
04-09-2003, 05:02 PM
Of course track management is going to say a statement like, "CMRA is the only one that allows such behavior....." Horse crap. They will say anything to get control over an issue that suits their purposes.

In my opinion.

David

cedestech
04-09-2003, 07:16 PM
Thank You Brooks and the BOD for being definitive on this subject.

I am 99.44/100% he ment operating pit bikes.

cedestech
04-09-2003, 07:16 PM
Thank You Brooks and the BOD for being definitive on this subject.

I am 99.44/100% he ment operating pit bikes.

darick
04-09-2003, 09:02 PM
!!!!!!!!!Brooks!!!!!!!!!!!

Please say this is the rule for motorized pit
bikes and NOT and age limit for entry into the facility the CMRA leases??????

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

darick
04-09-2003, 09:02 PM
!!!!!!!!!Brooks!!!!!!!!!!!

Please say this is the rule for motorized pit
bikes and NOT and age limit for entry into the facility the CMRA leases??????

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Barry Nichols
04-09-2003, 11:01 PM
Brooks has omitted the phrase "pit bikes" by accident in the above statement. Kids under 12 with proper supervision are always welcome and encouraged at CMRA events. Come on guys, these are the champs of tommorow!

Barry Nichols
BOD

Barry Nichols
04-09-2003, 11:01 PM
Brooks has omitted the phrase "pit bikes" by accident in the above statement. Kids under 12 with proper supervision are always welcome and encouraged at CMRA events. Come on guys, these are the champs of tommorow!

Barry Nichols
BOD

Jack Giesecke
04-10-2003, 10:39 AM
Will the pit bike stunting be stopped outside the regular paddock area at TWS? They go into the infield and up and down the infield road doing wheelies,stoppies, and hauling butt. It's not the hazard out there that it is in the crowded paddock area, BUT it is still a hazard when you have cars and bikes going into and out of the infield. And, I usually have to pit in the dirt out there and have to put up with all that as I usually put the bike out on the edge of the pavement. This is not only an annoyance out there, but dangerous, too, especially with little ones walking in and out of the infield with their parents and such or riding their bicycles/tricycles in that area.

Jack Giesecke
04-10-2003, 10:39 AM
Will the pit bike stunting be stopped outside the regular paddock area at TWS? They go into the infield and up and down the infield road doing wheelies,stoppies, and hauling butt. It's not the hazard out there that it is in the crowded paddock area, BUT it is still a hazard when you have cars and bikes going into and out of the infield. And, I usually have to pit in the dirt out there and have to put up with all that as I usually put the bike out on the edge of the pavement. This is not only an annoyance out there, but dangerous, too, especially with little ones walking in and out of the infield with their parents and such or riding their bicycles/tricycles in that area.

Bryan Norton
04-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Jack - yes it will be stopped.
If we want to continue to be able to use the tracks we MUST enforce these rules. We ask that everyone help us so that we don't have to have roving bands of CMRA officials out there.

Bryan Norton
04-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Jack - yes it will be stopped.
If we want to continue to be able to use the tracks we MUST enforce these rules. We ask that everyone help us so that we don't have to have roving bands of CMRA officials out there.

Brooks Gremmels
04-14-2003, 10:23 AM
David Ferris,
Excuse me but you couldn't be more wrong about TWS track mgt making self serving statements regarding paddock behavior. First of all, why would it be in their best interest to make up observations of the motorized-related behavior at our events as contrasted with others? The CMRA has raced at that facility for close to 30 years and we have much more than a casual relationship with the owner and management.
Secondly, I was talking to ther track owner and the general manager while we were standing at the east end of garage number two, on Saturday. Within a five minute period, we had dodge a small bike with two little girls that came whizzing around the corner and we saw the same rider doing a wheelie and stoppie right in front of us. That was when the comments about the unsafe behavior was first made to me. They were followed up in a phone call on monday morning.
Regardless of what you believe to be true, the BOD takes the safety of all of its members and guests seriously. If an experienced observer has constructive critism to offer, we aren't going to dismiss it with a derogatory comment.
Brooks

Brooks Gremmels
04-14-2003, 10:23 AM
David Ferris,
Excuse me but you couldn't be more wrong about TWS track mgt making self serving statements regarding paddock behavior. First of all, why would it be in their best interest to make up observations of the motorized-related behavior at our events as contrasted with others? The CMRA has raced at that facility for close to 30 years and we have much more than a casual relationship with the owner and management.
Secondly, I was talking to ther track owner and the general manager while we were standing at the east end of garage number two, on Saturday. Within a five minute period, we had dodge a small bike with two little girls that came whizzing around the corner and we saw the same rider doing a wheelie and stoppie right in front of us. That was when the comments about the unsafe behavior was first made to me. They were followed up in a phone call on monday morning.
Regardless of what you believe to be true, the BOD takes the safety of all of its members and guests seriously. If an experienced observer has constructive critism to offer, we aren't going to dismiss it with a derogatory comment.
Brooks

Jack Giesecke
04-14-2003, 11:23 AM
Okay, Brian. I was tempted to jump some folks about it when it's happened before. Now, I'll take names and/or politely request a cessation of the activities. CMRA doesn't need a liability lawsuit if someone gets hurt because of this sort of thing. It impresses few and it's not the time and place for such behavior. I can see where if it were to continue, CMRA might just have to outlaw use of pit vehicles altogether. That would not be desirable, especially for teams setting up on the hot pit, hauling tires and such around. Pit bikes/four wheelers are good to have for the business of running a race. I'd hate to see such behavior cause us to lose that privilege.

Jack Giesecke
04-14-2003, 11:23 AM
Okay, Brian. I was tempted to jump some folks about it when it's happened before. Now, I'll take names and/or politely request a cessation of the activities. CMRA doesn't need a liability lawsuit if someone gets hurt because of this sort of thing. It impresses few and it's not the time and place for such behavior. I can see where if it were to continue, CMRA might just have to outlaw use of pit vehicles altogether. That would not be desirable, especially for teams setting up on the hot pit, hauling tires and such around. Pit bikes/four wheelers are good to have for the business of running a race. I'd hate to see such behavior cause us to lose that privilege.

Blake
04-14-2003, 11:56 AM
I was astounded to see young kids riding helmetless and some even shoeless through the pit areas yesterday at Oak Hill. How utterly sad is it that we need "offical" rules to encourage such basic common sense safety considerations.

Also, are helmetless riders allowed on the track for the spectator lap?

What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day?

The CMRA is a class act for sure; it can become even better. Just imagine how we would feel if some easily preventable tragedy were to befall a child on a pit bike or an official riding an XR100. Let's be proactive on this issue, please.

Blake
04-14-2003, 11:56 AM
I was astounded to see young kids riding helmetless and some even shoeless through the pit areas yesterday at Oak Hill. How utterly sad is it that we need "offical" rules to encourage such basic common sense safety considerations.

Also, are helmetless riders allowed on the track for the spectator lap?

What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day?

The CMRA is a class act for sure; it can become even better. Just imagine how we would feel if some easily preventable tragedy were to befall a child on a pit bike or an official riding an XR100. Let's be proactive on this issue, please.

Jack Giesecke
04-14-2003, 12:05 PM
Blake, I certainly agree with you on the kids thing. But, officials need to be able to both hear and speak on their radios. Be hard to do with a full face. Perhaps with a full coverage helmet they could. Myself, I'm not going to put on a helmet to putt to the bathroom at 5mph on my XR or putt around the pits. Some of the officials are out on the track at times running a pretty good pace to get to accident scenes and such. I could see possibly an open front type helmet there. For kids under 18, it should be maditory full face. I'm not sure they should be allowed on a pit bike much younger than 14 unless in the junior motard race.

I thought there was a safety gear standard for spectator laps? I seem to remember that for a lap of Oak Hill I took with my daughter on the KX a few years ago, when the KX was still a knobbie tired pit bike. I brought her helmet with us just so I could show her the track.

Jack Giesecke
04-14-2003, 12:05 PM
Blake, I certainly agree with you on the kids thing. But, officials need to be able to both hear and speak on their radios. Be hard to do with a full face. Perhaps with a full coverage helmet they could. Myself, I'm not going to put on a helmet to putt to the bathroom at 5mph on my XR or putt around the pits. Some of the officials are out on the track at times running a pretty good pace to get to accident scenes and such. I could see possibly an open front type helmet there. For kids under 18, it should be maditory full face. I'm not sure they should be allowed on a pit bike much younger than 14 unless in the junior motard race.

I thought there was a safety gear standard for spectator laps? I seem to remember that for a lap of Oak Hill I took with my daughter on the KX a few years ago, when the KX was still a knobbie tired pit bike. I brought her helmet with us just so I could show her the track.

tinman
04-14-2003, 12:21 PM
helmets on the spectator lap? so you take most of the cruiser riders out cause they don't even bring helmets. good common sense yes, but look on the highway and at the state law books. And I wouldn't want to be the one to tell people they can't go on the lap because they have no helmet. The announcement was made but no specifics were stated. so what is appropriate safety gear? I have no problem with wearing it if we know what it is.

tinman
04-14-2003, 12:21 PM
helmets on the spectator lap? so you take most of the cruiser riders out cause they don't even bring helmets. good common sense yes, but look on the highway and at the state law books. And I wouldn't want to be the one to tell people they can't go on the lap because they have no helmet. The announcement was made but no specifics were stated. so what is appropriate safety gear? I have no problem with wearing it if we know what it is.

SMDGRFX
04-14-2003, 01:24 PM
I too saw many young kids riding their pit bikes...same ones I've seen before...Maybe everyone doesn't have internet to read what Brooks is posting. I was a little upset to see all these kids riding though. I brought my 11 year old nephew and would not let him drive my 50cc four wheeler because of the age requirements. He certainly brought it to my attention when he saw so many kids that looked a lot younger than 12 years old riding their pit bikes back and forth, round and round, doing more than 5mph....something needs to be done. We need an enforcer, or is that what the guys in the grey shirts were supposed to be doing...??? Just my $.02.....

SMDGRFX
04-14-2003, 01:24 PM
I too saw many young kids riding their pit bikes...same ones I've seen before...Maybe everyone doesn't have internet to read what Brooks is posting. I was a little upset to see all these kids riding though. I brought my 11 year old nephew and would not let him drive my 50cc four wheeler because of the age requirements. He certainly brought it to my attention when he saw so many kids that looked a lot younger than 12 years old riding their pit bikes back and forth, round and round, doing more than 5mph....something needs to be done. We need an enforcer, or is that what the guys in the grey shirts were supposed to be doing...??? Just my $.02.....

darick
04-14-2003, 02:53 PM
My wife and I pitted way in the back (near the cows and Sterling photography Motorhome) and saw quite a few youngsters riding various pit vehicles. Most of which were under the age of 12.
We both saw lots of kids with no gear (helmets) and noticed noone supervising their riding. If one of them had an accident, we would have been left to call the alarms. Isn't it the parents who
should supervise? Ahhhh yes!!! Indeed!!!

CMRA #123

darick
04-14-2003, 02:53 PM
My wife and I pitted way in the back (near the cows and Sterling photography Motorhome) and saw quite a few youngsters riding various pit vehicles. Most of which were under the age of 12.
We both saw lots of kids with no gear (helmets) and noticed noone supervising their riding. If one of them had an accident, we would have been left to call the alarms. Isn't it the parents who
should supervise? Ahhhh yes!!! Indeed!!!

CMRA #123

darick
04-14-2003, 02:56 PM
And.....to further add to the situation, most of the little tikes were riding around without numbers on the bikes. So, if they were to injure themselves, who do you take them to? I thought the
rules were all pit bikes should have # plates.

darick
04-14-2003, 02:56 PM
And.....to further add to the situation, most of the little tikes were riding around without numbers on the bikes. So, if they were to injure themselves, who do you take them to? I thought the
rules were all pit bikes should have # plates.

Blake
04-14-2003, 03:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jack Giesecke:
...But, officials need to be able to both hear and speak on their radios. Be hard to do with a full face. Perhaps with a full coverage helmet they could. ...
Some of the officials are out on the track at times running a pretty good pace to get to accident scenes and such. I could see possibly an open front type helmet there. </div></div>I agree. Even a CHIPS style half shell or bycycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jack Gieseck:
...Myself, I'm not going to put on a helmet to putt to the bathroom at 5mph on my XR or putt around the pits.</div></div>What message does that send to the youngsters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought there was a safety gear standard for spectator laps?... </div></div>I would tend to think so too, but I don't know, is there?

Blake
04-14-2003, 03:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jack Giesecke:
...But, officials need to be able to both hear and speak on their radios. Be hard to do with a full face. Perhaps with a full coverage helmet they could. ...
Some of the officials are out on the track at times running a pretty good pace to get to accident scenes and such. I could see possibly an open front type helmet there. </div></div>I agree. Even a CHIPS style half shell or bycycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jack Gieseck:
...Myself, I'm not going to put on a helmet to putt to the bathroom at 5mph on my XR or putt around the pits.</div></div>What message does that send to the youngsters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought there was a safety gear standard for spectator laps?... </div></div>I would tend to think so too, but I don't know, is there?

Blake
04-14-2003, 03:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Rob Rundell:
helmets on the spectator lap? so you take most of the cruiser riders out cause they don't even bring helmets. good common sense yes, but look on the highway and at the state law books. And I wouldn't want to be the one to tell people they can't go on the lap because they have no helmet. The announcement was made but no specifics were stated. so what is appropriate safety gear? I have no problem with wearing it if we know what it is.</div></div>If during a spectator lap a helmetless rider should encounter some unforseen hazard or equipment failure causing him to lose control, crash and end up with a head injury, could he sue us (CMRA) and/or the track? I honestly don't know, but if the expert legalistic answer to that question is anything but "absolutely not", would you care to personally insure the CMRA against such a possibility? If not, I think the prudent decision is to require helmets on the spectator lap. It is a RACEtrack, right? If we are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators, I'm sure we can round up a few spare helmets to lend out. Shoot, I bet we could get some brand new helmets on a grattis/promotional basis. If, that is, you are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators; personally I am not.

Blake
04-14-2003, 03:26 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Rob Rundell:
helmets on the spectator lap? so you take most of the cruiser riders out cause they don't even bring helmets. good common sense yes, but look on the highway and at the state law books. And I wouldn't want to be the one to tell people they can't go on the lap because they have no helmet. The announcement was made but no specifics were stated. so what is appropriate safety gear? I have no problem with wearing it if we know what it is.</div></div>If during a spectator lap a helmetless rider should encounter some unforseen hazard or equipment failure causing him to lose control, crash and end up with a head injury, could he sue us (CMRA) and/or the track? I honestly don't know, but if the expert legalistic answer to that question is anything but "absolutely not", would you care to personally insure the CMRA against such a possibility? If not, I think the prudent decision is to require helmets on the spectator lap. It is a RACEtrack, right? If we are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators, I'm sure we can round up a few spare helmets to lend out. Shoot, I bet we could get some brand new helmets on a grattis/promotional basis. If, that is, you are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators; personally I am not.

Tim Freeman
04-14-2003, 04:18 PM
I nominate Derrick Patman for Pit bike enforcer. His suped-up scooter has flashing blue lights that would be perfect for pulling people over.

Tim Freeman
04-14-2003, 04:18 PM
I nominate Derrick Patman for Pit bike enforcer. His suped-up scooter has flashing blue lights that would be perfect for pulling people over.

Tom Thompson
04-14-2003, 05:04 PM
I second that nomination, I'll supply him with a whistle, too.

Tom Thompson
04-14-2003, 05:04 PM
I second that nomination, I'll supply him with a whistle, too.

tinman
04-14-2003, 05:12 PM
blake please send me an e-mail so i can contact you

tinman
04-14-2003, 05:12 PM
blake please send me an e-mail so i can contact you

Yuliya Marcer
04-14-2003, 05:13 PM
Blake, if you find a lawyer who would put the word "absolutely" in front of any answer let me know. I'll get him disbarred. Seriously though, the question is not if he can sue, the question is what the result can be, and nobody can give you more than a definite maybe. Which is too much risk.

Brooks, from CMRA's liability and risk management perspective, you are going about this correctly. There needs to be a written policy, and there need to be systematic and consistent efforts to enforce it. Someone probably couldn't charge CMRA with negligence if they ride on spectator lap without helmet and get hurt, but they could claim negligence if CMRA actually allowed or at least not expressly prohibited such behavior. Same with pit conduct; CMRA won't be automatically liable for every act of misconduct in the pits just because it's the organizing body; however, the liability risk increases significantly if it was aware of the problem, it was foreseeable that the problem would arise again and could cause injury/damage and it still failed to take reasonable measures to prevent it. Now what measures are reasonable - well, who knows, that's something jurors would have to decide, but a clear safe bet is to implement and enforce written policies that address it.

Oh, and even though this is a RACE track, if I recall correctly the 'assumption of risk' defense is no longer valid in Texas. Texas is a comparative negligence state; that is, even if the plaintiff is partially at fault as well (say, he should have been paying more attention to where he was going), that would not prevent him from recovering, it's just that his recovery will be reduced by the corresponding percentage of his fault. Say, if jury determines that defendant was 55% at fault and plaintiff 45% and damages were $1000, plaintiff would get $550, not $1000 but not $0 either.

Yuliya "Aren't You Glad Lawyers Race Too" Dvorak

Yuliya Marcer
04-14-2003, 05:13 PM
Blake, if you find a lawyer who would put the word "absolutely" in front of any answer let me know. I'll get him disbarred. Seriously though, the question is not if he can sue, the question is what the result can be, and nobody can give you more than a definite maybe. Which is too much risk.

Brooks, from CMRA's liability and risk management perspective, you are going about this correctly. There needs to be a written policy, and there need to be systematic and consistent efforts to enforce it. Someone probably couldn't charge CMRA with negligence if they ride on spectator lap without helmet and get hurt, but they could claim negligence if CMRA actually allowed or at least not expressly prohibited such behavior. Same with pit conduct; CMRA won't be automatically liable for every act of misconduct in the pits just because it's the organizing body; however, the liability risk increases significantly if it was aware of the problem, it was foreseeable that the problem would arise again and could cause injury/damage and it still failed to take reasonable measures to prevent it. Now what measures are reasonable - well, who knows, that's something jurors would have to decide, but a clear safe bet is to implement and enforce written policies that address it.

Oh, and even though this is a RACE track, if I recall correctly the 'assumption of risk' defense is no longer valid in Texas. Texas is a comparative negligence state; that is, even if the plaintiff is partially at fault as well (say, he should have been paying more attention to where he was going), that would not prevent him from recovering, it's just that his recovery will be reduced by the corresponding percentage of his fault. Say, if jury determines that defendant was 55% at fault and plaintiff 45% and damages were $1000, plaintiff would get $550, not $1000 but not $0 either.

Yuliya "Aren't You Glad Lawyers Race Too" Dvorak

Chris Thomas
04-14-2003, 05:35 PM
Remember it is not just the kids...
This weekend I saw a particular lap record smasher with the horn rimmed spectacles doing stand up 360's on a crf 150 in the back by the photo trailer. It sure was cool looking, but what will the tykes think when you tell them they can't?

And who am I to tell particularly well liked stars (I like 'im) they can't play?

On a distantly related subject, I have seen other record smashers, two of them subsequent world champions doing similar stuff. #34 had THREE people on his yamaha thumper doing wheelies down the BACK side of pit lane at TWS. Times change, and these things are no longer something that can be done. That is the way it is. Now it is time to fix it.

Chris Thomas
04-14-2003, 05:35 PM
Remember it is not just the kids...
This weekend I saw a particular lap record smasher with the horn rimmed spectacles doing stand up 360's on a crf 150 in the back by the photo trailer. It sure was cool looking, but what will the tykes think when you tell them they can't?

And who am I to tell particularly well liked stars (I like 'im) they can't play?

On a distantly related subject, I have seen other record smashers, two of them subsequent world champions doing similar stuff. #34 had THREE people on his yamaha thumper doing wheelies down the BACK side of pit lane at TWS. Times change, and these things are no longer something that can be done. That is the way it is. Now it is time to fix it.

Barry Nichols
04-14-2003, 06:17 PM
Here is an offer for Blake. Next race event, I will race and you can sit for 12-14 hours per day in the middle of a hot track with gloves, long pants, boots, and Oh Yeah, a helmet. While kids and some adults abusing pit bike rules in the paddock is a definite problem, officials on pit bikes working tirelessly to make "your" race day go smoothly is not. Since you obviously have enough time to make unproductive observations, why not use you talents in fixing problems. I can get you a grey shirt and we'll let you take little "jimmy" and "betty" to their parents over and over again for pit bike violations only to be told how "unfair" the rules are. When you dedicate your weekends for others instead of yourself and post with a last name, then you will have the perspective needed to tackle these issues.

Barry Nichols
04-14-2003, 06:17 PM
Here is an offer for Blake. Next race event, I will race and you can sit for 12-14 hours per day in the middle of a hot track with gloves, long pants, boots, and Oh Yeah, a helmet. While kids and some adults abusing pit bike rules in the paddock is a definite problem, officials on pit bikes working tirelessly to make "your" race day go smoothly is not. Since you obviously have enough time to make unproductive observations, why not use you talents in fixing problems. I can get you a grey shirt and we'll let you take little "jimmy" and "betty" to their parents over and over again for pit bike violations only to be told how "unfair" the rules are. When you dedicate your weekends for others instead of yourself and post with a last name, then you will have the perspective needed to tackle these issues.

Rich Desmond
04-14-2003, 08:18 PM
Given that there's a lot of CMRA members who don't frequent the message board, maybe having a flyer with the pit bike rules printed on it to pass out at the gate would be a good idea? If so, let me know, I'll be happy to print off a couple hundred and mail them to the CMRA office.

Rich Desmond
04-14-2003, 08:18 PM
Given that there's a lot of CMRA members who don't frequent the message board, maybe having a flyer with the pit bike rules printed on it to pass out at the gate would be a good idea? If so, let me know, I'll be happy to print off a couple hundred and mail them to the CMRA office.

cedestech
04-14-2003, 08:42 PM
Desmond said:
<<I'll print a couple hundred and ship them to the CMRA office>>

Now "THAT" is a usefull sugestion.

If you do that Rich I thank you.

cedestech
04-14-2003, 08:42 PM
Desmond said:
<<I'll print a couple hundred and ship them to the CMRA office>>

Now "THAT" is a usefull sugestion.

If you do that Rich I thank you.

JesseJohnson
04-14-2003, 10:39 PM
It was my suggestion, that in addition to signing the track liability release, they also sign a sheet saying they read the rules about pitbike usage. No arguing with that unless they are illiterate.

Jess

JesseJohnson
04-14-2003, 10:39 PM
It was my suggestion, that in addition to signing the track liability release, they also sign a sheet saying they read the rules about pitbike usage. No arguing with that unless they are illiterate.

Jess

Yuliya Marcer
04-14-2003, 11:26 PM
Jess, again, very good idea for liability management at least from legal perspective, but make sure you supplement it with a mailing or some other distribution of the pit bike rules in less rushed circumstances where people would actually READ them if you want them to know exactly what they may and may not do and what happens if they break the rules (just forbidding is not enough, you have to tell them what will happen if the rules are broken). Now, have you seen anyone actually read the waver they sign when they enter the gate? I mean, apart from the usual 'yeah yeah I know, if I break my neck I won't hold them responsible' thing can anyone tell me what it actually says? Heck, even I would be hard-pressed to remember, and I sure know that as a lawyer I'll be held to every word of it, whether I read it or not.

Yuliya Marcer
04-14-2003, 11:26 PM
Jess, again, very good idea for liability management at least from legal perspective, but make sure you supplement it with a mailing or some other distribution of the pit bike rules in less rushed circumstances where people would actually READ them if you want them to know exactly what they may and may not do and what happens if they break the rules (just forbidding is not enough, you have to tell them what will happen if the rules are broken). Now, have you seen anyone actually read the waver they sign when they enter the gate? I mean, apart from the usual 'yeah yeah I know, if I break my neck I won't hold them responsible' thing can anyone tell me what it actually says? Heck, even I would be hard-pressed to remember, and I sure know that as a lawyer I'll be held to every word of it, whether I read it or not.

Blake
04-15-2003, 01:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Barry Nichols:
Here is an offer for Blake. Next race event, I will race and you can sit for 12-14 hours per day in the middle of a hot track with gloves, long pants, boots, and Oh Yeah, a helmet.</div></div>Next race is at Motor Sports Ranch May 3-4, probably not anywhere near the most uncomfortably hot event of the year; no matter, I'll be traveling out of state that weekend, so no racing for me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif But Barry, if a lack of official CMRA manpower is truly a problem, I'd be HAPPY, to join the staff when feasible. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Thank you for considering me as a fellow CMRA staff member.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...officials on pit bikes working tirelessly to make "your" race day go smoothly is not (a problem).</div></div>Yes sir, I agree enthusiastically with that statement. I think you may be confusing the issue I intended to raise. The issue that I intended to broach here with respect to race officials wearing helmets is one of safety and integrity, not value, effort, or professional competence. From what I've seen the entire CMRA staff provides exceptional value, exerts Herculean effort, and exibits exemplary competence. (Do I get a prize for packing 4 "x's" into one sentence? LOL) I am in NO WAY questioning those characteristics; rather I simply asked...

"What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day?"

I later added...

"...a CHIPS style half shell or bicycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing."

I thought those statements might qualify as constructive/productive. I'm sorry that you and others here, especially Claire and Barry, chose to interprete them otherwise. My bad. I'll try in the future to word my criticism more positively.

Of course you are perfectly free to form and hold the opinion that my observation is "unproductive", and in the end, if nothing changes, I will probably agree.

In the mean time, might we consider the potential ramifications should a helmetless CMRA official suffer an unfortunate accident resulting in a serious head injury? Do we want to be proactive, or reactive? Some questions we might want to ponder...

1. Is the safety risk real or imaginary?

2. If real, is the risk significant, or is it negligible? (Weighing the product of probability and consequence, what level of risk is acceptable?)

3. Does there exist a solution that will effectively mitigate the risk?

4. Is the solution cost effective?

5. Does the solution unbearably compromise mission performance?

6. Rhetoric and emotion aside, does logic dictate a clear and obvious choice on the issue?

Or rather than misinterpreting my point concerning helmets for race officials, are you implying that since a race official is providing a much needed and valuable service that he/she and the club as a whole may disregard a basic safety measure?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you obviously have enough time to make unproductive observations, why not use your talents in fixing problems. I can get you a grey shirt and we'll let you take little "jimmy" and "betty" to their parents over and over again for pit bike violations only to be told how "unfair" the rules are.</div></div>Yes, I do have time to offer reinforcement and concurrence to the laudable statements and decisions made by the President and leaders of our club. I'm flattered by your offer to allow me to take charge of pit bike issue. Name the time and place and if at all possible I'll be there to help resolve the problem. I do have a few basic conditions prior to accepting responsibility for enforcing/resolving the pit bike problem...

1. I'll need the absolute authority to advertise and enforce the rules, and the board must approve specific and significant consequences for pit bike rules violations.

2. You meet those terms along with providing the sylish gray shirt and the board's blessing and I'll enthusiastically dispense with the silly pit bike problem for you.

Trust me, if the rules are well understood, and if enforcement is expected, and if consequences for violations are significant, the problem will be no more. Brooks has effectively stated this in the opening post of this topic. I'm confused about why you are upset at me for supporting his statements? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Personally, I have little to no concern about the pit bike issue other than for the youngsters themselves. I personally witnessed an incident at the February 22nd OHR event where a very young future racer accidentally ran head-on into a pit colliding forcefully with a large tool box knocking it over and spilling all the tools. The pit inhabitants were not present and the little rascal fled the scene leaving strangers in a neighboring pit to deal with the mess. The spilt toolbox was not an issue for me, no big deal, just some spilt tools; I was mostly concerned and ultimately relieved that the little guy, his bruised ego/pride aside, apparently escaped serious injury.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you dedicate your weekends for others instead of yourself and post with a last name, then you will have the perspective needed to tackle these issues.</div></div>I'll certainly agree with you that I can be one very selfish egotistical SOB. Not sure if that invalidates my opinion or not. I don't think so. And again, I am simply offering reinforcement and concurrence to the statement made by the President of our club. Did you read it? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Brooks Gremmels:
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit (for pit bike riders) at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events. If a particular track has its own age criteria, their rules will supersede those of the CMRA. ALL motorized pit vehicles must have the CMRA member's racing number clearly marked on the vehicle. Please don't put your child or those charged with enforcing this rule in the awkward position of having to deal with it.
Riders of any age on bikes that are seen speeding above an estimated five (5) miles per hour, performing stoppies or wheelies or any other such behavior will be in the position of potentially losing their right to ride in the paddock.</div></div>As for my last name. It is "Hussein."

KIDDING!!!

I prefer to not display/advertise my full name in a public forum. I fail to recognize how displaying my last name could improve my perspective on any issues discussed here. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif I'm certainly not trying to hide my identity from fellow CMRA members. I seek only to hide from overzealous web trolling marketing/sales/spamming/telemarketer types.

Hope to see you all at Hallet. Look for the black Buell Cyclone #131 AM; please say hello if you see me. In the future, I'll try to word my criticism more positively. I feel a bit snakebit and misunderstood after reading some of the venomous responses directed my way. No worries, I can take it. After all, I ride a Buell! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The last name is "Rudy"; you can email me through the MBoard; my phone # is 903 984 1960.

Peace, love, and speed,

Blake
04-15-2003, 01:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Barry Nichols:
Here is an offer for Blake. Next race event, I will race and you can sit for 12-14 hours per day in the middle of a hot track with gloves, long pants, boots, and Oh Yeah, a helmet.</div></div>Next race is at Motor Sports Ranch May 3-4, probably not anywhere near the most uncomfortably hot event of the year; no matter, I'll be traveling out of state that weekend, so no racing for me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif But Barry, if a lack of official CMRA manpower is truly a problem, I'd be HAPPY, to join the staff when feasible. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Thank you for considering me as a fellow CMRA staff member.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...officials on pit bikes working tirelessly to make "your" race day go smoothly is not (a problem).</div></div>Yes sir, I agree enthusiastically with that statement. I think you may be confusing the issue I intended to raise. The issue that I intended to broach here with respect to race officials wearing helmets is one of safety and integrity, not value, effort, or professional competence. From what I've seen the entire CMRA staff provides exceptional value, exerts Herculean effort, and exibits exemplary competence. (Do I get a prize for packing 4 "x's" into one sentence? LOL) I am in NO WAY questioning those characteristics; rather I simply asked...

"What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day?"

I later added...

"...a CHIPS style half shell or bicycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing."

I thought those statements might qualify as constructive/productive. I'm sorry that you and others here, especially Claire and Barry, chose to interprete them otherwise. My bad. I'll try in the future to word my criticism more positively.

Of course you are perfectly free to form and hold the opinion that my observation is "unproductive", and in the end, if nothing changes, I will probably agree.

In the mean time, might we consider the potential ramifications should a helmetless CMRA official suffer an unfortunate accident resulting in a serious head injury? Do we want to be proactive, or reactive? Some questions we might want to ponder...

1. Is the safety risk real or imaginary?

2. If real, is the risk significant, or is it negligible? (Weighing the product of probability and consequence, what level of risk is acceptable?)

3. Does there exist a solution that will effectively mitigate the risk?

4. Is the solution cost effective?

5. Does the solution unbearably compromise mission performance?

6. Rhetoric and emotion aside, does logic dictate a clear and obvious choice on the issue?

Or rather than misinterpreting my point concerning helmets for race officials, are you implying that since a race official is providing a much needed and valuable service that he/she and the club as a whole may disregard a basic safety measure?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since you obviously have enough time to make unproductive observations, why not use your talents in fixing problems. I can get you a grey shirt and we'll let you take little "jimmy" and "betty" to their parents over and over again for pit bike violations only to be told how "unfair" the rules are.</div></div>Yes, I do have time to offer reinforcement and concurrence to the laudable statements and decisions made by the President and leaders of our club. I'm flattered by your offer to allow me to take charge of pit bike issue. Name the time and place and if at all possible I'll be there to help resolve the problem. I do have a few basic conditions prior to accepting responsibility for enforcing/resolving the pit bike problem...

1. I'll need the absolute authority to advertise and enforce the rules, and the board must approve specific and significant consequences for pit bike rules violations.

2. You meet those terms along with providing the sylish gray shirt and the board's blessing and I'll enthusiastically dispense with the silly pit bike problem for you.

Trust me, if the rules are well understood, and if enforcement is expected, and if consequences for violations are significant, the problem will be no more. Brooks has effectively stated this in the opening post of this topic. I'm confused about why you are upset at me for supporting his statements? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Personally, I have little to no concern about the pit bike issue other than for the youngsters themselves. I personally witnessed an incident at the February 22nd OHR event where a very young future racer accidentally ran head-on into a pit colliding forcefully with a large tool box knocking it over and spilling all the tools. The pit inhabitants were not present and the little rascal fled the scene leaving strangers in a neighboring pit to deal with the mess. The spilt toolbox was not an issue for me, no big deal, just some spilt tools; I was mostly concerned and ultimately relieved that the little guy, his bruised ego/pride aside, apparently escaped serious injury.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you dedicate your weekends for others instead of yourself and post with a last name, then you will have the perspective needed to tackle these issues.</div></div>I'll certainly agree with you that I can be one very selfish egotistical SOB. Not sure if that invalidates my opinion or not. I don't think so. And again, I am simply offering reinforcement and concurrence to the statement made by the President of our club. Did you read it? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Posted by Brooks Gremmels:
After discussions with insurance carriers, track owners and members, the decision has been made to enforce a twelve (12) year old age limit (for pit bike riders) at the facilities the CMRA leases for its events. If a particular track has its own age criteria, their rules will supersede those of the CMRA. ALL motorized pit vehicles must have the CMRA member's racing number clearly marked on the vehicle. Please don't put your child or those charged with enforcing this rule in the awkward position of having to deal with it.
Riders of any age on bikes that are seen speeding above an estimated five (5) miles per hour, performing stoppies or wheelies or any other such behavior will be in the position of potentially losing their right to ride in the paddock.</div></div>As for my last name. It is "Hussein."

KIDDING!!!

I prefer to not display/advertise my full name in a public forum. I fail to recognize how displaying my last name could improve my perspective on any issues discussed here. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif I'm certainly not trying to hide my identity from fellow CMRA members. I seek only to hide from overzealous web trolling marketing/sales/spamming/telemarketer types.

Hope to see you all at Hallet. Look for the black Buell Cyclone #131 AM; please say hello if you see me. In the future, I'll try to word my criticism more positively. I feel a bit snakebit and misunderstood after reading some of the venomous responses directed my way. No worries, I can take it. After all, I ride a Buell! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The last name is "Rudy"; you can email me through the MBoard; my phone # is 903 984 1960.

Peace, love, and speed,

olddude
04-15-2003, 01:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Phillip Conner:
3.4.6B Paraphrase: No children under 16 on pit road unless registered participants. All children must be supervised by an adult. Emmett Dibble
CMRA, WERA, Can-Am #311 EX

How about rule 3.3.3 Each rider is responsible for the behavior and actions of any personnel, either family or crew, who is attached to his/her racing effort.

I understand this to apply to ALL!!! My first race was @ OH, and I was hit while standing in my pit area while looking in my tool box by a very small girl riding 3 up on a cycle. Later she was almost hit by a motard as she was coming out from between two cars! Still later she crashed right in front of my pit she was injured and crying; I help her up , picked the cycle up a suggested she go park it. She did not!
No I do not hate children, I have 4, plus 7 grandchildren, and 1 great-grandchild. Some people should take a look at the Texas laws; they are scary; as to what Texas considers reckless endangerment of a child and what they can do to a parent.</div></div>Well; she and others were back again and running through the area all day!!! At least she did not run into me or my pit this time.

olddude
04-15-2003, 01:39 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Phillip Conner:
3.4.6B Paraphrase: No children under 16 on pit road unless registered participants. All children must be supervised by an adult. Emmett Dibble
CMRA, WERA, Can-Am #311 EX

How about rule 3.3.3 Each rider is responsible for the behavior and actions of any personnel, either family or crew, who is attached to his/her racing effort.

I understand this to apply to ALL!!! My first race was @ OH, and I was hit while standing in my pit area while looking in my tool box by a very small girl riding 3 up on a cycle. Later she was almost hit by a motard as she was coming out from between two cars! Still later she crashed right in front of my pit she was injured and crying; I help her up , picked the cycle up a suggested she go park it. She did not!
No I do not hate children, I have 4, plus 7 grandchildren, and 1 great-grandchild. Some people should take a look at the Texas laws; they are scary; as to what Texas considers reckless endangerment of a child and what they can do to a parent.</div></div>Well; she and others were back again and running through the area all day!!! At least she did not run into me or my pit this time.

tinman
04-15-2003, 03:40 PM
no blake you cant be reached thru the mboard mail. that is why i asked you to email me which ive heard no response. you are in one of the best clubs in the nation and need to recognize it. instead of criticizing do something positive. Its easy to talk on this board. we'll see later this year if you are all talk or will actually do something constructive.

tinman
04-15-2003, 03:40 PM
no blake you cant be reached thru the mboard mail. that is why i asked you to email me which ive heard no response. you are in one of the best clubs in the nation and need to recognize it. instead of criticizing do something positive. Its easy to talk on this board. we'll see later this year if you are all talk or will actually do something constructive.

Blake
04-15-2003, 05:28 PM
Rob,
Try using the MBoard Private Message http://www.frenzy.com/UBB/ubb/priv_message.gif utility?

With all due respect, I'm really not interested in your opinion of my posts. If you have something substantive and pertinent to add to the discussion fine, but to simply admonish me for raising my concerns... well I have FAR better things to do than to try to justify my concerns and suggestions to you or anyone else. The fact is that I have offered positive suggestions. You and others for whatever reason simply choose not to recognize them. The CMRA is an OUTSTANDING club. I feel it can be even better. What an arrogant jerk I am. :rolleyes:

Peace, love, and lower lap times,

Blake
04-15-2003, 05:28 PM
Rob,
Try using the MBoard Private Message http://www.frenzy.com/UBB/ubb/priv_message.gif utility?

With all due respect, I'm really not interested in your opinion of my posts. If you have something substantive and pertinent to add to the discussion fine, but to simply admonish me for raising my concerns... well I have FAR better things to do than to try to justify my concerns and suggestions to you or anyone else. The fact is that I have offered positive suggestions. You and others for whatever reason simply choose not to recognize them. The CMRA is an OUTSTANDING club. I feel it can be even better. What an arrogant jerk I am. :rolleyes:

Peace, love, and lower lap times,

Blake
04-15-2003, 05:42 PM
Yuliya,
You caught me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif The term "absolutely" is a bit disingenuous in the legal connotation. Thanks for keeping me honest. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Blake
04-15-2003, 05:42 PM
Yuliya,
You caught me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif The term "absolutely" is a bit disingenuous in the legal connotation. Thanks for keeping me honest. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

tinman
04-15-2003, 06:23 PM
could you restate those positive suggestions, i missed them somewhere. Yes pit bike rules should be enforced. but what are they? they were stated on the board but seem to have vanished once everyone arrived at the hill. I agree with jess on the flier so no one can say well track management said it was ok. set the rules and stick by them.

tinman
04-15-2003, 06:23 PM
could you restate those positive suggestions, i missed them somewhere. Yes pit bike rules should be enforced. but what are they? they were stated on the board but seem to have vanished once everyone arrived at the hill. I agree with jess on the flier so no one can say well track management said it was ok. set the rules and stick by them.

Barry Nichols
04-15-2003, 07:03 PM
Blake you DO have too much time on your hands because you write long, long, long posts! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif I do understand the points you tried to make and although there is value to your efforts and I appreciate you trying to find solutions, I just don't believe in fixing problems that don't exist. I raced in this club now for 12 years. On occasion I worked corners when funds were too low to race. But I never had any idea what a herculian effort it takes to put on a race event until I became a board member and began to work as a staff member. Without even mentioning all the hours I and others in the staff dedicate between races to make these events happen, neglecting our families and personal lives, the sheer logistics of putting on a race weekend is unbelievable. I get to the track before most every racer, and I am usually one of the last to leave. While racers are jawing about the great pass they made on their buddy that morning, the staff is packing up the 8000lbs of junk we haul back and forth to every event. Monday morning while most racers are recovering from the weekend, we are mulling through a ton of e-mails trying to co-ordinate the next event. So if we seem a bit testy at critisism the day after an event, please understand. Your suggestions are always welcome, but that doesn't mean I will agree /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Barry Nichols
04-15-2003, 07:03 PM
Blake you DO have too much time on your hands because you write long, long, long posts! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif I do understand the points you tried to make and although there is value to your efforts and I appreciate you trying to find solutions, I just don't believe in fixing problems that don't exist. I raced in this club now for 12 years. On occasion I worked corners when funds were too low to race. But I never had any idea what a herculian effort it takes to put on a race event until I became a board member and began to work as a staff member. Without even mentioning all the hours I and others in the staff dedicate between races to make these events happen, neglecting our families and personal lives, the sheer logistics of putting on a race weekend is unbelievable. I get to the track before most every racer, and I am usually one of the last to leave. While racers are jawing about the great pass they made on their buddy that morning, the staff is packing up the 8000lbs of junk we haul back and forth to every event. Monday morning while most racers are recovering from the weekend, we are mulling through a ton of e-mails trying to co-ordinate the next event. So if we seem a bit testy at critisism the day after an event, please understand. Your suggestions are always welcome, but that doesn't mean I will agree /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Blake
04-15-2003, 07:44 PM
It's all good. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Rob,
My well meaning comments and suggestions (some now repeated for the 2nd time) for your reading pleasure (me say over; help you read good) /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ...

"What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day? ...a CHIPS style half shell or bicycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing."

"If we are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators (during the spectator lap), I'm sure we can round up a few spare helmets to lend out. Shoot, I bet we could get some brand new helmets on a grattis/promotional basis."

"might we consider the potential ramifications should a helmetless CMRA official suffer an unfortunate accident resulting in a serious head injury? Do we want to be proactive, or reactive? Some questions we might want to ponder...

1. Is the safety risk real or imaginary?

2. If real, is the risk significant, or is it negligible? (Weighing the product of probability and consequence, what level of risk is acceptable?)

3. Does there exist a solution that will effectively mitigate the risk?

4. Is the solution cost effective?

5. Does the solution unbearably compromise mission performance?

6. Rhetoric and emotion aside, does logic dictate a clear and obvious choice on the issue?"

"...if a lack of official CMRA manpower is truly a problem, I'd be HAPPY, to join the staff when feasible."

"Name the time and place and if at all possible I'll be there to help resolve the (pit bike) problem. I do have a few basic conditions prior to accepting responsibility for enforcing/resolving the pit bike problem...

1. I'll need the absolute authority to advertise and enforce the rules, and the board must approve specific and significant consequences for pit bike rules violations.

2. You meet those terms along with providing the stylish gray shirt and the board's blessing, and I'll enthusiastically dispense with the silly pit bike problem for you.

...if the rules are well understood, and if enforcement is expected, and if consequences for violations are significant, the problem will be no more. Brooks has effectively stated this in the opening post of this topic."

Blake
04-15-2003, 07:44 PM
It's all good. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Rob,
My well meaning comments and suggestions (some now repeated for the 2nd time) for your reading pleasure (me say over; help you read good) /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ...

"What kind of example are CMRA race officials setting when riding around helmetless all day? ...a CHIPS style half shell or bicycle helmet would be FAR better than nothing."

"If we are really worried about offending a few helmetless spectators (during the spectator lap), I'm sure we can round up a few spare helmets to lend out. Shoot, I bet we could get some brand new helmets on a grattis/promotional basis."

"might we consider the potential ramifications should a helmetless CMRA official suffer an unfortunate accident resulting in a serious head injury? Do we want to be proactive, or reactive? Some questions we might want to ponder...

1. Is the safety risk real or imaginary?

2. If real, is the risk significant, or is it negligible? (Weighing the product of probability and consequence, what level of risk is acceptable?)

3. Does there exist a solution that will effectively mitigate the risk?

4. Is the solution cost effective?

5. Does the solution unbearably compromise mission performance?

6. Rhetoric and emotion aside, does logic dictate a clear and obvious choice on the issue?"

"...if a lack of official CMRA manpower is truly a problem, I'd be HAPPY, to join the staff when feasible."

"Name the time and place and if at all possible I'll be there to help resolve the (pit bike) problem. I do have a few basic conditions prior to accepting responsibility for enforcing/resolving the pit bike problem...

1. I'll need the absolute authority to advertise and enforce the rules, and the board must approve specific and significant consequences for pit bike rules violations.

2. You meet those terms along with providing the stylish gray shirt and the board's blessing, and I'll enthusiastically dispense with the silly pit bike problem for you.

...if the rules are well understood, and if enforcement is expected, and if consequences for violations are significant, the problem will be no more. Brooks has effectively stated this in the opening post of this topic."