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Robin's Roost
10-14-2002, 12:01 PM
I believe that Lawless Racing II #19 was registered the morning of the Oct 12th endurance without including Marc Gifford in their roster. Mr. Gifford was registered with Carpet Dog #22, which only completed a few laps before quiting due to mechanical failure. I believe, based on the posting on the main message board "cresson backwards" that Mr Gifford road for Lawless Racing II. I do not know Mr. Gifford nor would I recognize him, so I did not have any way of knowing this on race day. However, it appears that after the start of the race, and after the mechanical failure of bike # 22, Mr. Gifford joined team #19.

My team, Robin's Roost #59 was pushed back to third place in class, when Mr. Gifford (I believe) joined the Lawless Racing II team, over which we were maintaining a comfortable lead in the first two hours.

I interpret rule 6.1.8 to allow a rider to join an endurance team during the race only if the team has been reduced to less than two riders.

My question is can I protest this formally now, since I could not know this information during the race or 30 minute allotted protest time?

This team has changed the outcome of the class championship since Faultless Racing and Robin's Roost were in a very close points battle where one more finishing position for us would have reversed the outcome.

Your consideration is appreciated.

Chris Robin
Robin's Roost #59

PS. I hold nothing against Mr Gifford, I would want track time too, if my ride broke, however, I feel the points should not be given if the roster is not in complience with the rules.

Chuck Ergle
10-14-2002, 11:05 PM
This matter is being researched. Since I am on an endurance team directly affected by the potential outcome (Faltless Racing), and while I have offered my opinion on the subject to the Board of Directors (primarily the protest period rule), I have recused myself from the investigation, and any subsequent deliberations on possible outcomes, so as to avoid the obvious conflicts of interest that may arise. If Faltless loses the championship because Marc Gifford failed to sign on as a rider on the team in question, he will buy all of Faltless Racing's booze at the banquet without question, or we will kick his *** the entire time, and he will smile without complaint...

JesseJohnson
10-14-2002, 11:08 PM
IIRC, the protest period has not been followed rigorously this year. Austin Racing lost a position in a race earlier this year well after the protest "period" was over when the other team went back and corrected their lap count with a manual count.

Jess

ysr612
10-15-2002, 12:39 AM
Mark always smiles regarless if he is the kicker or the kickiee

Robin's Roost
10-15-2002, 09:19 AM
Chuck,

Thanks for your reply and integrity on this matter. Faultless has been a fine adversary for 5+ years, and if Robin's Roost wins the class championship, don't worry, I'll be buying the adult festive beverages.

Seriously though, regardless of the outcome, there appears to be a flaw in the system. The rules states that the protest period begins after posting of results. However, the riders names that are in each team, are not posted anywhere on race day.

Similarly, the classes for each team are not posted anywhere prior to the start of the race. I felt like I was being a pain the the a$$ when I had to go to registration at 1:20PM to ask the ladies to go through almost every registration sheet to find out who was the competition that was in our class. I did this because nobody else could tell me if bike #80 was running in lightweight class. Bike #80 happens to be an SV-650, but they run in unlimited supersport class. Obviously the classes are posted on the results. However, to this date, to the best of my knowledge, the rider names have not been posted anywhere! This is the aspect that I am trying to protest.

Regardless of the outcome, I think standard operating procedure should be to post the rider names and classes at the same time as the posting of the grid sheets. That way riders would at least stand a chance of knowing when the competition is complying with the rules. The only way I knew Mr Gifford had changed teams, was by his comments on the message board. I know I'm asking the hard working staff members to do just one more thing on race day, but this would place the responsibility of a timely protest squarely on the sholders of the protesting team. I feel this could eliminate the post race-day quandry that we are in today.

Trying to keep it positive...

Chris Robin

Eric Kelcher
10-15-2002, 11:37 PM
As the person who entered the endurance teams I can tell you in fact Marc Gifford did enter for Lawless II BUT as this would have been their 6th rider I notifed them of this and they became Lawless III.
The rider rooster does not really fall under the 30 minute time period as a violation once it occurs it continues to occur. make sense?
But at the end of the year there has to be a point at which the results are final, championships decided, etc. that I guess is the question how long can you protest a season violation?

Eric Kelcher
10-15-2002, 11:39 PM
Oh as it was close to beginiing of race when the decision of how to handle LawlessII- Lawless III came about it was decidied to just go with what we had ready and update the records afterwards but with the scoring computer crash there were other more pressing issues to deal with.

G Man
10-16-2002, 01:33 PM
Mr. Robins, To be quite honest I had know idea of what was going on with your points battle until they(Faltless) thanked me. I also started this endurance year(Carpet Dogs) with every aspiration of beating faltless, My situation changed mid season so the only way I could come and play was to ride for different teams. I have been on at least 2 teams a race(except the ones I missed) at every event. I go to every race to try and ride as much as I can and am sorry about you guys getting second but look at this way, If the Dogs hadn't of quit half way through the year this argument Would be for third cuz we left the series in the lead. ps I will introduce myself at the banquet, and congratulations on a great year you guys are very consistent and that is usually what wins in Endurance. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Brett
11-12-2002, 07:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Eric Kelcher:
The rider rooster does not really fall under the 30 minute time period as a violation once it occurs it continues to occur. make sense?
</div></div>I protest! Seriously, all protests should really be limited by the 30 minute rule. If this sort of thing does not fall under the 30 minute rule then the rules should be changed to indicate this is the case.

While the rules may not be perfect, they are the rules, and they should be followed. If problems become apparant then address them through a rule change, not by improvising and deviating from the rules as written.

Thanks,
Brett

Eric Kelcher
11-12-2002, 09:05 PM
Even though I am no official capacity anymore I will try to explain this.
The rider limit is for the season, not for a race, so if a team goes over the limit they continue to be over the limit for the rest of the season. So a protest of this nature would be more related to season points, not finish position of a particular weekend.

But take this as you may I cannot say how it would be ruled on even though I wrote the rule.

Brooks Gremmels
11-13-2002, 07:59 AM
Eric's intrepretation of the extension of the protest period for an infraction that persists after the race, is correct. Another thing that has led to this determination is the simple fact that until now the teams's rosters for a particular race were not available in time for the 30 minute protest period to be met.
Perhaps as a review of this season continues, a procedure can be initiated that would facilite posting of the endurance team rosters prior to the start of the race or certainly during the race, at a minimum. From that point forward, all would have the opportunity to inspect the rosters and act accordingly.
Brooks

Robin's Roost
11-13-2002, 12:24 PM
For the record, Robin's Roost would like to withdrawl any and all protests on the Cresson endurance results.

I congratulate the Lawless team on their 2nd place finish, and more important, congratulate the Faultless team on their continued string of Lightweight Endurance Championships.

Thank you all for listening to my suggestions for registration procedures, that could prevent future problems identifying registered endurance team members. I agree that it does the sport no good to have late protests.

Robin's Roost
#59

Brooks Gremmels
11-13-2002, 04:04 PM
Chris, thank you for your patience. We have taken your suggestions seriously and will implement changes next season accordingly.
Brooks