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G-Man
10-08-2003, 03:09 PM
Does the CMRA have a breakdown of the # of CMRA members by state and city/state?

Nancy Selleck
10-08-2003, 03:39 PM
Obviously, I have a membership list which includes addresses.

What sort of breakdown would you like to see?

G-Man
10-08-2003, 04:38 PM
Nancy, thanks for the quick reply.

The info I'm looking for is very basic. I don't want names, #'s or street addresses.

What I'm specifically lokking for is:
1. # of members by state
2. # of members by city or zip

I don't want to add to your workload by having you do process the information; I'm more than happy to compile the #'s. If you have this member list in some kind of spreadsheet that you could strip out all the columns except for city, state and zip and send the sheet electronically to me that would be perfect.

Thanks again.

Craig Montgomery
10-09-2003, 11:25 AM
Assuming someone has enough time to sit in front of a computer and crunch the numbers.....The riders' hometowns are listed in the results on the 'results' page of this website. I am, however, not sure how representative this is of the entire CMRA membership since it only includes current racers.

Tony Moore
10-09-2003, 12:59 PM
I think Craig's hometown is listed as 'straight outta Compton'

G-Man
10-09-2003, 03:58 PM
Total time involved was less than 5 minutes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" style="height: 150px;"><pre>State # % of Total
AL 1 0.16%
AR 15 2.44%
CA 1 0.16%
CO 2 0.33%
IL 1 0.16%
KS 10 1.63%
LA 32 5.20%
MEXICO 6 0.98%
MN 1 0.16%
MO 11 1.79%
NH 1 0.16%
NM 2 0.33%
OK 50 8.13%
TX 480 78.05%
WA 1 0.16%
WI 1 0.16%
----- --- -------
Total 615 100.00%</pre></div></div>Nancy:
Thanks again to Nancy for sending me the base info. I'll be sending you an updated spreadsheet back so you can cut/paste if you ever want to produce these #'s again.

Jeff the jet Lee
10-09-2003, 04:25 PM
That is pretty cool, just curious, but since Texas has the majority of members, can you do a similar breakdown by Texas cities?

G-Man
10-09-2003, 05:07 PM
I think it would be more relevant to break them down into "areas" like Austin, Metroplex, Houston, South Texas, West Texas making a city's inclusion in "area" say 100 miles.

It will take some time but I might be able to put something together.

G-Man
10-09-2003, 05:13 PM
Am I the only one who thinks if 50 members in Oklahoma are enough justification for 2 events at Hallett that 32 members in Louisiana might be enough justification for 1 event at NPR (provided any safety issues could be addressed and the rental rates were attractive)?

You have to wonder if the CMRA had a larger presence in La. if we might be able to bring in more members from Arkansas and Mississippi?

E. Templet
10-09-2003, 11:06 PM
Don't feel too bad for this Louisiana boy, Barber is closer for me than any of the CMRA tracks. What a dirty shame. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

On the flip side, there isn't a whole lot of interest in motorcycle roadracing in Louisiana, mainly because there isn't a whole lot of people with money here either....ever since the sent Edwin Edwards to jail in Texas that is. Doh!!

CYCLE 1
10-09-2003, 11:21 PM
Gordon,the answer is yes /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Derek Delpero
10-09-2003, 11:22 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
Am I the only one who thinks if 50 members in Oklahoma are enough justification for 2 events at Hallett that 32 members in Louisiana might be enough justification for 1 event at NPR (provided any safety issues could be addressed and the rental rates were attractive)?

You have to wonder if the CMRA had a larger presence in La. if we might be able to bring in more members from Arkansas and Mississippi? </div></div>Gordon,

Don't you think that is a bit of an over simplification? Sure there are 480 members that live in Texas, but keep in mind that with out a geographic or regional break down of Texas that number really means nothing. Texas is a pretty big state.

Now if you had some sort of a regional break down of Texas, then you could lump north texas with OK and Houston with LA. Then you might have a point.

Don't take this too terribly personal, but maybe if you spent less time worrying about the club and writing a bunch of posts on the message board, maybe, just maybe you could find time to race.

Think of the time you could be spending in your garage getting you bike ready to race.

Because seriously IMO, people showing up at the track and racing is what helps the club the most.

Derek D

Bryan Norton
10-09-2003, 11:38 PM
I knew some people a few years ago that over simplified everything and thought that the CMRA hasn't learned from over 20 years of racing experience.

They did things like take track rent and subtract it from total assumed entries and said "wow, look how much money the CMRA is making. People must be stealing money!" and others "Wow, we could do this and make it profitable, bring in hundreds of spectators, and break this out to mainstream"

Then they found out there are so many other factors; Insurance, Staffing, all other logistics (Ever price out 17 high quality radios for corner workers? Not the throw away stuff you see at wal-mart)Much of this equipment is in constant need of some repairs.

There are many factors for deciding which tracks to run, among them are facilities (for the millionth freaking time, NPR cannot sustain a CMRA event, and there is still 'the wall' issue.


The BoD is currently made up of 2 San Antonio, 2 Dallas, 1 Oklahoma, 1 Waco, 1 Houston representatives, If I recall correctly.

I would be interested in a visual graph with each major region of rider base represented by colors.

However, in racing any track there are many other factors.

Gordon - Sorry the BoD is not quick to answer every question you present this week, most of us are getting ready to go to the races this weekend and don't have spare time to post.

I also understand since I think(not sure) you are fairly new to all this that you may not know where we have raced in the past.

Just a few years ago we had races at Topeka Kansas, and for a couple year kicked off the season in Monterrey Mexico. We have raced before my time at Wheels Raceway (?) in San Angelo.

Needless to say, all the number crunching in the world won't show we have enough riders in Mexico or Kansas to truly run there.

Yet another factor is where we want to BUILD ridership.

And another is riders running from other regions. Dallas is more central to the rest of the US than College Station, and Oklahoma is even more so.

The CCS National Championship is at Daytona. Thats not very central to their riders. Pretty long drive for the west coast guys.

I need to stop here, gotta go pack for the races.

G-Man
10-10-2003, 10:44 AM
Derek:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't take this too terribly personal, but maybe if you spent less time worrying about the club and writing a bunch of posts on the message board, maybe, just maybe you could find time to race. </div></div>I see how this works now; you can insult someone as long as you preface it with the requirement to not take it personal.

Well, Derek, please don't take this personally, but you don't know me or the status of my race bike so your assumptions and insights how I might better manage my time are neither accurate, pertinent or even remotely welcome. As for me posting on this message board, I can only assume that for you it is a very time consuming and tasking process based on your stance that it severely impacts the time required to prep a race bike or to even race on weekends. I can assure you however, that posting on this message board has absolutely zero impact on my ability to attend races. To be quite frank, the reason I do or don't attend races is immaterial to the matters at hand and really none of you or anyone elses concern.

What the hell is a message board for if not posting messages?

BTW, we are in agreement that racers attending races are integral to the success to the club. Where we seem to disagree is that attending races is the only value members can provide to the club.

Bryan:
As for my observation regarding racing at NPR, it was just that, a simple opinion. I've seen several very experienced/long-time members comment that the one of the main reasons we race at Hallett is to support the Ok. members (which is a great idea) and to expand into other regions outside Texas. Combine that with the fact that there is an ongoing drive to provide different tracks and configurations to run to increase variety (another great idea) and it seems like that adding an additional location in La. to the club's repertoire might satisfy both goals. I don't claim to know all the issues regarding what factors are involved in deciding what tracks the CMRA races at (BTW, I'm all for racing at Barber as well), however I do recognize that safety, cost and logistics will always supercede the desire for expansion and variety.

You are correct, Bryan. I am relatively new to the organization (just my second year as a licensed racer) so the questions I'm asking on this forum are solely because I don't know all the processes. I can assure you that I've only asked these questions after searching the forum to make sure that the information isn't readily available. I understand that the BoD and members that might want to answer my questions are very busy both with their real jobs as well as preparation for the upcoming race weekend; I'm happy to receive any responses whenever they can be made.

Finally, for the individuals that somehow feel threatened by requests for info. I can also assure you that it is no way a critique of the current or past club leadership or membership, how they ran the club or any experience they have gained/applied.

Rich Desmond
10-10-2003, 10:56 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
...I can assure you that I've only asked these questions after searching the forum to make sure that the information isn't readily available...</div></div>Um, you might want to work on that search method then, because the NPR question you asked was raised, and answered, in a thread that started on May 8th.

G-Man
10-10-2003, 10:58 AM
Since there has been some interest in breaking the members down to geographic regions, I will be more than happy to do it procided we can come to some kind of agreement on what defines a region.

My suggestion would be the following:
1. Break Texas down into the following groups:
A. Metroplex
B. Austin/San Antonio
C. Houston
D. South Texas
E. West Texas

2. Regions outside of Texas will be state based as their really isn't enough member penetration to make region breakdowns conclusive.

G-Man
10-10-2003, 11:07 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Um, you might want to work on that search method then, because the NPR question you asked was raised, and answered, in a thread that started on May 8th.</div></div>and if I had posted a seperate question regarding racing at NPR that would apply. I'm aware of previous concerns raised about the track and also very aware, that like many issues, not everyone is in total agreement regarding the viability of the track from a safety and cost standpoint. My reference to NPR in this case was limited solely to geographic representation and had nothing to do with the other issues that were discussed. If I missed a previous thread where geographic impact and supporting statistics were discussed, please feel free to post a link.

Thanks.

Derek Delpero
10-10-2003, 11:57 AM
I see how this works now; you can insult someone as long as you preface it with the requirement to not take it personal.


Yeah, sure, you really shouldn't take it personally or read it as insult.


Well, Derek, please don't take this personally, but you don't know me or the status of my race bike so your assumptions and insights how I might better manage my time are neither accurate, pertinent or even remotely welcome. As for me posting on this message board, I can only assume that for you it is a very time consuming and tasking process based on your stance that it severely impacts the time required to prep a race bike or to even race on weekends. I can assure you however, that posting on this message board has absolutely zero impact on my ability to attend races. To be quite frank, the reason I do or don't attend races is immaterial to the matters at hand and really none of you or anyone elses concern.


I don't take it personally at all. You are correct, I don't know you. Come out to the races and introduce yourself.

My comment about time was based on a previous post of yours where you wrote something about not having time to race due to familiy, work, etc. You wrote it, your brought your personal reasons into the public.



What the hell is a message board for if not posting messages?


Just a fine line between contructive discusions and stirring the pot ...


BTW, we are in agreement that racers attending races are integral to the success to the club. Where we seem to disagree is that attending races is the only value members can provide to the club.


You are reading between the lines. I never said that "attending races is the only value members can provide to the club." All members provide a value. Just those that acutally race provide the most value.

if you want to continue this conversation, email me at ddelpero@125gp.com

Derek D

Mathew Wise
10-10-2003, 01:52 PM
We have enough races in Texas. Lets cancell the two remaining TWS rounds and add NPR and Barber!! :p

G-Man
10-10-2003, 02:10 PM
I think most would do just about anything to add Barber to the schedule. I'm really looking forward to actually riding it next year.

JesseJohnson
10-13-2003, 03:01 AM
Gordon, in any club that depends so much on it's members to participate, it's blood and sweat that really pay the dues, not just a cheque. Unless there is a face to go with the name, you aren't anything other than a name with a single vote at the end of the year. It's that simple.

There are formal ways to get the information you desire, and it's usually stated in the incoporation bylaws. I'm sure at worst you can send Nancy a certified letter with your proposals. The BOD has posted meeting minutes and financials several times in the past year. I don't think they have broken down the financials for us by track, but I bet if you asked nicely at a later date the bookkeepers will be happy to provide them. Of course, all of this can be easily handled by attending a race and talking to Nancy or any of the BOD members present. I've never ever heard them say no to a resonable request. If there is anything stated in the bylaws that is not being followed through on, let the staff know. Ohh yeah, NPR was deemed unsafe when last reviewed.


Now for some questions of my own:

What do you really want to get out of all these requests? What is it about the elimination of the 3rd TWS round that broke the camel's back for you and lead you on this charge to question the BOD's decision process? There is definetly some animosity in your posts, and you top it off with several requests for financials, minutes, proposal forms, etc.

This leads me to believe that a non-participating member is trying to stir the pot, and there has to be motive.

I noticed in reviewing your previous posts that you speak as if you are affiliated with RideSmart. If you ride with them, what prevents you from participating in club events? Race prepping a bike should be no problem. A night of hard work at the worst to get going. Is there something else going on here?

Regards
Jess

10-13-2003, 12:08 PM
i think to be fair you would also have to take this membership breakdown and go a step further

to get any real true representation you would have to find the race entry numbers per region.
race entries are what provides the most quantifiable benefit to this club.

perhaps you should also get into percentages; i.e. 75% of the members from x-state provide 5 race entries per person whereas only 55% of y-state provides 5 entries.

and perhaps from those percentages one might make a case for increased presense in the areas that have less membership so as to build that membership base.

or maybe you want to take into account your "hard core" membership and cater more to them.

the thing about stats is you can take any number of stances and meanings from the same findings and make it "represent" whatever position you want with a little creative language.

G-Man
10-13-2003, 03:10 PM
Jess, thanks for the response.

Once again, requests for information are not "stirring the pot"; to be quite frank anyone who feels that way is making an assumption without any real basis. There is no need to read anything more into it other than I'm curious how things work within the CMRA and as a member feel there shouldn't be any issue with me trying to gain an understanding. If I've asked for anything that is not available for any reason then the BoD just needs to say so and that's all. Of course if this information is available as a matter of record to members then that's great too.

Once more, for the offical record, I'm not affiliated with RideSmart. I'm not an employee nor do I receive any kind of compensation for any service rendered. I'm just a customer, plain and simple. Do I promote them? Absolutely. Are they the only business or organization I promote because I am a satisfied customer? Absolutely not.

Jess, I'll send you my phone #. Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions.

G-Man
10-13-2003, 03:20 PM
John:
You misunderstand the purpose of the breakdown. It's not to provide any specific correlations based on the data #'s, it's only to provide the numbers themselves and let the individual interpret it as they see fit.

Nancy Selleck
10-13-2003, 03:32 PM
I have to agree with Jess on the participation thing.

Just because a name is on the membership list doesn't mean that they participate in the club.

Breaking down the membership by city, state and zip simply shows where members reside.

Not whether they actively participate by going to the races, working a corner, attending the banquet, etc.

Deciding where to hold races based on membership residency probably wouldn't be the best idea.


Speaking of non-participating members, it's interesting to me how many folks post their opinions about club business on this message board who aren't even current CMRA members.

I understand from Jess that it's very time consuming to weed out the folks who are no longer CMRA members but who still have message board access. (Maybe we could just dump everyone on December 31st and only give them access when they renew their memberships for the next year.)

Denying access is not my complaint. My problem is with the people who post their opinions while not ever renewing their membership. You folks know who you are...

Kinda upsets me. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

ysr612
10-13-2003, 07:47 PM
I like to hear what Bob has to say. Some of the old retired members should be heard from.

ps even when they are younger then I.

Nancy Selleck
10-13-2003, 09:20 PM
That's why we have an Associate Membership.

Don't race, but have all the other privileges.

I know someone who's an "old retired member" and has been associated with the club since at least 1978, but they don't have posting privileges because they're not a current member.

Maybe we should amend the message board rules in some way to include them? Or maybe they should be required to apply for an Associate Membership?

ysr612
10-13-2003, 09:31 PM
I can see the point.

Ps. I think Jester is doing a great job witn the board.

David Branyon
10-14-2003, 03:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
John:
You misunderstand the purpose of the breakdown. It's not to provide any specific correlations based on the data #'s, it's only to provide the numbers themselves and let the individual interpret it as they see fit. </div></div>Reminds me of one of my favorite book titles: "How to Lie With Statistics." Not a shot at you Gordon, just that nearly every "hard number" you ever see, has some subjectivity behind it. In a case like this, if you present "just the data" in terms of membership breakdown by area vs. race entry breakdown by area, you are putting one perspective or the other on the results. Breaking it down both ways would be one attempt to be more fair, but someone else will think of another way of breaking it down. Point: there's nearly always some direction or persuasiveness involved in presenting the numbers.

marcus mcbain
10-16-2003, 12:15 AM
I find the comments on this thread very interesting. Several folks make references questioning Gordon's participation. Gordon took some time to ask some great questions. Perhaps the manner didn't "rub some the right way", but the guy is trying to get involved and he is basically being told to "shut up" and just go race. Many of our BOD have limited racing schedules now due to their commitment to the club. Should we tell them to "just go race"? Obviously not. Many past volunteers didn't enter into the club as full time racers, but rather as volunteers for the organization. I believe the BOD would do well to help Gordon participate with the club.

I do find the "statistics" comments comical. Many who have questioned Gordon's intentions, also questioned me when I wanted to bring some analysis to the table. I find it ironic that the last CMRA newsletter had a page of similar statistics printed in it to back up the direction of the club.

I openly invite the BOD to help members partipate in levels beyond racing by doing the following:

1) Publish the clubs original charter, by-laws, and amendments for all to read on this web-site so members can understand the organization better.

2) Pick 5 or 6 riders to be "Rider Representatives". The MRA does this and this allows a "funnel" for racers/members to channel thoughts and ideas while keeping disruption to a minimum caused by diligent intent.

Thank you to the BOD members who sacrifice time to keep the club maintained.

Marcus McBain

ysr612
10-16-2003, 09:22 AM
I think one of the parts of this club that make it so good is that the bod is basicly riders or relitives of riders.

10-16-2003, 04:01 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
I find the comments on this thread very interesting. Several folks make references questioning Gordon's participation. Gordon took some time to ask some great questions. Perhaps the manner didn't "rub some the right way", but the guy is trying to get involved and he is basically being told to "shut up" and just go race. Many of our BOD have limited racing schedules now due to their commitment to the club. Should we tell them to "just go race"? Obviously not. Many past volunteers didn't enter into the club as full time racers, but rather as volunteers for the organization. I believe the BOD would do well to help Gordon participate with the club.

I do find the "statistics" comments comical. Many who have questioned Gordon's intentions, also questioned me when I wanted to bring some analysis to the table. I find it ironic that the last CMRA newsletter had a page of similar statistics printed in it to back up the direction of the club.


Thank you to the BOD members who sacrifice time to keep the club maintained.

Marcus McBain </div></div>here in lies the problem...

gordon takes offense entirely to readilly(sp), as a result, his attitude casts a shadow over whatever it is he is trying to achieve.
this started on another thread and has continued on this thread.

i am still not sure exactly what his motives are because he does not state them. when questioned, he just screams "persecution"!

i think everyone would like and appreciate gordon's participation, and several have said as much, just leave the attitude at home.

as far as the statistics comment goes, the reason the same people have stated the same response to gordon as to you is because the same argument applies to both.
numbers are wonderful and all but you can use them any way you want to.

David Branyon
10-16-2003, 04:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
<snip>
I do find the "statistics" comments comical. Many who have questioned Gordon's intentions, also questioned me when I wanted to bring some analysis to the table. I find it ironic that the last CMRA newsletter had a page of similar statistics printed in it to back up the direction of the club. <snip></div></div>Notice, I didn't say that he would be wrong to present statistics on it, but that to indicate that he was just going to provide the numbers and let others make decisions on them is somewhat misleading (though I don't think that is his intent). My point is that nearly every set of numbers, such as those in the CMRA newsletter, have a bias behind them as the author attempts to back up their point of view. That's fine, and the numbers don't lie themselves, just the way they may be presented.

It's actually a bit more comfortable when the bias and persuasive point is clearly stated. Then you know the person's point of view and can be wary of them bending the presentation of data to suit their needs.

On the other hand, people have personalities and emotions, and if someone comes in rubbing folks the wrong way, he may be suspected of an ulterior motive and he will make it hard on himself. Shouldn't be a surprise. And it's very easy to rub people wrong on a message board.

Now... I'm fine with everyone. Let's see the data if you can put it together Gordon. Everyone have a wonderful day! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

David Branyon
10-16-2003, 04:20 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
<snip>
I do find the "statistics" comments comical. Many who have questioned Gordon's intentions, also questioned me when I wanted to bring some analysis to the table. I find it ironic that the last CMRA newsletter had a page of similar statistics printed in it to back up the direction of the club. <snip></div></div>Notice, I didn't say that he would be wrong to present statistics on it, but that to indicate that he was just going to provide the numbers and let others make decisions on them is somewhat misleading (though I don't think that is his intent). My point is that nearly every set of numbers, such as those in the CMRA newsletter, have a bias behind them as the author attempts to back up their point of view. That's fine, and the numbers don't lie themselves, just the way they may be presented.

It's actually a bit more comfortable when the bias and persuasive point is clearly stated. Then you know the person's point of view and can be wary of them bending the presentation of data to suit their needs.

On the other hand, people have personalities and emotions, and if someone comes in rubbing folks the wrong way, he may be suspected of an ulterior motive and he will make it hard on himself. Shouldn't be a surprise. And it's very easy to rub people wrong on a message board.

Now... I'm fine with everyone. Let's see the data if you can put it together Gordon. Everyone have a wonderful day! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

G-Man
10-17-2003, 09:25 AM
Interesting.

I was curious what the geographic breakdown of our membership was so I (with Nancy's assistance) posted some numbers. The only reason I thought this might be pertinent was that geographic representation was listed as a supporting factor in the decision making process for which tracks we race on.

I do disagree with the stance that the data has less value because it includes all members and not just those that race. The reality is that race locations effect even the CMRA members that don't/can't race like track staff, cornerworkers, pit crews, etc.

G-Man
10-17-2003, 09:25 AM
Interesting.

I was curious what the geographic breakdown of our membership was so I (with Nancy's assistance) posted some numbers. The only reason I thought this might be pertinent was that geographic representation was listed as a supporting factor in the decision making process for which tracks we race on.

I do disagree with the stance that the data has less value because it includes all members and not just those that race. The reality is that race locations effect even the CMRA members that don't/can't race like track staff, cornerworkers, pit crews, etc.

Bryan Norton
10-17-2003, 11:50 AM
Gordon, Ill agree with you on the last statement and go even further -
It may be that active members are NOT racing becuase we are not holding events in their region.

The numbers show pretty much exactly what we thought. I do believe one of the take aways from this is we need to promote more in Austin and Dallas. Austin has a huge contingent of possible racers and we must not be marketing hard enough there, and Dallas/Ft Worth has a good pool of riders we should be getting the word out too.
Hoepfully the extra date at MSR will help the Dallas/Ft Worth pull.
I am not sure what we can do to better affect Austin. I think we need to get out the posters with all the event dates to each of the bike shops at the very least.
We used to race in the parking lot of the exposition center (before my time) and even before then on the streets at Aqua Fest.
The city is very pro-motorcycle, but even when I lived there I had not heard of the CMRA or had any information on the organization...all I knew was 'there is this motorcycle racing group that hosts races' with no other info...

Bryan Norton
10-17-2003, 11:50 AM
Gordon, Ill agree with you on the last statement and go even further -
It may be that active members are NOT racing becuase we are not holding events in their region.

The numbers show pretty much exactly what we thought. I do believe one of the take aways from this is we need to promote more in Austin and Dallas. Austin has a huge contingent of possible racers and we must not be marketing hard enough there, and Dallas/Ft Worth has a good pool of riders we should be getting the word out too.
Hoepfully the extra date at MSR will help the Dallas/Ft Worth pull.
I am not sure what we can do to better affect Austin. I think we need to get out the posters with all the event dates to each of the bike shops at the very least.
We used to race in the parking lot of the exposition center (before my time) and even before then on the streets at Aqua Fest.
The city is very pro-motorcycle, but even when I lived there I had not heard of the CMRA or had any information on the organization...all I knew was 'there is this motorcycle racing group that hosts races' with no other info...

David Branyon
10-17-2003, 03:49 PM
Was there some information posted breaking it down further than the state level? I'd like to see that but haven't found it in this thread.

BTW, when I was in Aggieland going to school, same thing: "yeah, there's some people that race every now and then at TWS, I think motorcycles." 'Course, that was before the web, which makes it a bit easier to find the stuff, but... I wonder if CMRA shows up under searches for "racing texas" on yahoo and such. Just a sec...

Not for "racing texas," but if you use "motorcycle racing texas" sure enough, 1st listing is CMRA.

David Branyon
10-17-2003, 03:49 PM
Was there some information posted breaking it down further than the state level? I'd like to see that but haven't found it in this thread.

BTW, when I was in Aggieland going to school, same thing: "yeah, there's some people that race every now and then at TWS, I think motorcycles." 'Course, that was before the web, which makes it a bit easier to find the stuff, but... I wonder if CMRA shows up under searches for "racing texas" on yahoo and such. Just a sec...

Not for "racing texas," but if you use "motorcycle racing texas" sure enough, 1st listing is CMRA.

metricracer
10-22-2003, 04:26 PM
I've been following this thread for some time and I've kept my fingers away mainly because I don't have the time either. I'm a Database Developer/Administrator during the week (when I do work) so this topic interested me. I started on my own trying to "clean" one of the results pages this year and found it difficult because a lot of the information is there but it's just a little garbled (Iím not complaining). Anyway, I too agree that access to ďthe dataĒ would be very nice to have. Iím sure sponsors would agree too if you could show their product is winning 80% of the time or something like that.

As far as TWS goes, Iíll bet the numbers will show it favorably but Iím sick of it.

As far as NPR goes, I believe itís got an undeserving bad rap and compared to OakHill itís pretty safe (yes, Iíve raced at both places). NPR has made improvements that I havenít seen yet so I wonít comment about them yet but they have an open trackday every Monday so I may sneak out and try it and maybe take some pictures. Maybe a board member can go with me.

IMHO,
Kelly Tompkins
AM #214 (made it to three race weekends this year)

metricracer
10-22-2003, 04:26 PM
I've been following this thread for some time and I've kept my fingers away mainly because I don't have the time either. I'm a Database Developer/Administrator during the week (when I do work) so this topic interested me. I started on my own trying to "clean" one of the results pages this year and found it difficult because a lot of the information is there but it's just a little garbled (Iím not complaining). Anyway, I too agree that access to ďthe dataĒ would be very nice to have. Iím sure sponsors would agree too if you could show their product is winning 80% of the time or something like that.

As far as TWS goes, Iíll bet the numbers will show it favorably but Iím sick of it.

As far as NPR goes, I believe itís got an undeserving bad rap and compared to OakHill itís pretty safe (yes, Iíve raced at both places). NPR has made improvements that I havenít seen yet so I wonít comment about them yet but they have an open trackday every Monday so I may sneak out and try it and maybe take some pictures. Maybe a board member can go with me.

IMHO,
Kelly Tompkins
AM #214 (made it to three race weekends this year)

11-03-2003, 11:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
2) Pick 5 or 6 riders to be "Rider Representatives". The MRA does this and this allows a "funnel" for racers/members to channel thoughts and ideas while keeping disruption to a minimum caused by diligent intent.
</div></div>Marcus, is the current BOD so unapproachable that we need another layer of management?

Please explain what benefit these positions might have to us as members, and what benefit they might provide to the BOD.

11-03-2003, 11:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
2) Pick 5 or 6 riders to be "Rider Representatives". The MRA does this and this allows a "funnel" for racers/members to channel thoughts and ideas while keeping disruption to a minimum caused by diligent intent.
</div></div>Marcus, is the current BOD so unapproachable that we need another layer of management?

Please explain what benefit these positions might have to us as members, and what benefit they might provide to the BOD.

11-03-2003, 11:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
2. Regions outside of Texas will be state based as their really isn't enough member penetration to make region breakdowns conclusive. </div></div>Gordon,
In order to support your contention that we need a race at NPR, we would need a breakdown of LA members. If only one of them is from the I-10 corridor, and 14 of them are from the I-20 corridor, your contention is invalid. Such numbers would suggest that we need to add another Oak Hill event, not one at NPR. Certainly the inverse might hold true.

See, this is one of the ways a person can manipulate the data without actually manipulating the data. If the data is to be provided so that everyone can come to his or her own conclusion, then ALL the data has to be provided.

11-03-2003, 11:17 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
2. Regions outside of Texas will be state based as their really isn't enough member penetration to make region breakdowns conclusive. </div></div>Gordon,
In order to support your contention that we need a race at NPR, we would need a breakdown of LA members. If only one of them is from the I-10 corridor, and 14 of them are from the I-20 corridor, your contention is invalid. Such numbers would suggest that we need to add another Oak Hill event, not one at NPR. Certainly the inverse might hold true.

See, this is one of the ways a person can manipulate the data without actually manipulating the data. If the data is to be provided so that everyone can come to his or her own conclusion, then ALL the data has to be provided.

CYCLE 1
11-03-2003, 04:08 PM
The 04 schedule is posted, make youre plans,get
the bike ready, call credit card company for higher limit. Quit whining *****ing and moaning
about things that wont be and prepare for what will be. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

CYCLE 1
11-03-2003, 04:08 PM
The 04 schedule is posted, make youre plans,get
the bike ready, call credit card company for higher limit. Quit whining *****ing and moaning
about things that wont be and prepare for what will be. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

ysr612
11-03-2003, 08:05 PM
"Member geographic breakdown "

I rode a 305 superhawk for 97000 miles so I have had a breakdown in every geographic region.

ysr612
11-03-2003, 08:05 PM
"Member geographic breakdown "

I rode a 305 superhawk for 97000 miles so I have had a breakdown in every geographic region.

GreSam
11-18-2003, 02:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bryan Norton:
The numbers show pretty much exactly what we thought. I do believe one of the take aways from this is we need to promote more in Austin and Dallas. Austin has a huge contingent of possible racers and we must not be marketing hard enough there, and Dallas/Ft Worth has a good pool of riders we should be getting the word out too.
Hoepfully the extra date at MSR will help the Dallas/Ft Worth pull. ...
</div></div>I just posted a question to the BoD along the same lines. I have also posted ideas and other reasons the BoD should be doing more to promote the CMRA to the public. I would urge everyone to take a look at it, and please provide me some feedback.

I know I'm a new member and based on this thread perhaps some of you will view that in a negative way, but I can assure you that I have experience from which to speak. I welcome any and all comments either by e-mail or here on the board.

GreSam
11-18-2003, 02:47 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bryan Norton:
The numbers show pretty much exactly what we thought. I do believe one of the take aways from this is we need to promote more in Austin and Dallas. Austin has a huge contingent of possible racers and we must not be marketing hard enough there, and Dallas/Ft Worth has a good pool of riders we should be getting the word out too.
Hoepfully the extra date at MSR will help the Dallas/Ft Worth pull. ...
</div></div>I just posted a question to the BoD along the same lines. I have also posted ideas and other reasons the BoD should be doing more to promote the CMRA to the public. I would urge everyone to take a look at it, and please provide me some feedback.

I know I'm a new member and based on this thread perhaps some of you will view that in a negative way, but I can assure you that I have experience from which to speak. I welcome any and all comments either by e-mail or here on the board.

Rich Desmond
11-18-2003, 03:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Sampson:
I just posted a question to the BoD along the same lines. I have also posted ideas and other reasons the BoD should be doing more to promote the CMRA to the public. I would urge everyone to take a look at it, and please provide me some feedback.</div></div>Greg,

The BOD members are dedicated, hardworking volunteers with real jobs and families, not paid staff with no other responsibilities. They already shoulder a very heavy burden in keeping the club running. I'm sure that they would welcome an offer of help if someone had some promotional ideas that they wanted to pursue.

Rich Desmond
11-18-2003, 03:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Greg Sampson:
I just posted a question to the BoD along the same lines. I have also posted ideas and other reasons the BoD should be doing more to promote the CMRA to the public. I would urge everyone to take a look at it, and please provide me some feedback.</div></div>Greg,

The BOD members are dedicated, hardworking volunteers with real jobs and families, not paid staff with no other responsibilities. They already shoulder a very heavy burden in keeping the club running. I'm sure that they would welcome an offer of help if someone had some promotional ideas that they wanted to pursue.

GreSam
11-18-2003, 05:52 PM
Rich - I do realize they are busy. I was simply wanting some feedback from others.

You make a good point though... that we need to HELP the BoD in any way we can by offering ideas and suggestions. So, it is funny that Gordon got chastised on the board because he was seeking information. Do any of you really know anything about him? Everyone who latched onto the NPR "example" missed the point and needs to take a step back.

He isn't arguing for another race, he is simply seeking information so that he can, in fact, recommend new ideas and perspectives on daily issues the BoD may not have the time to recognize. NPR was used only as an example and he is obviously the type of guy that processes information using real world situations. Maybe he just wants to understand how the club works and how we can improve as an orgainzation.

So, rather than chastising the curious, why not promote and use the resources we have within the club? If someone has relavent business experience, we should welcome the input, not run away screaming.

GreSam
11-18-2003, 05:52 PM
Rich - I do realize they are busy. I was simply wanting some feedback from others.

You make a good point though... that we need to HELP the BoD in any way we can by offering ideas and suggestions. So, it is funny that Gordon got chastised on the board because he was seeking information. Do any of you really know anything about him? Everyone who latched onto the NPR "example" missed the point and needs to take a step back.

He isn't arguing for another race, he is simply seeking information so that he can, in fact, recommend new ideas and perspectives on daily issues the BoD may not have the time to recognize. NPR was used only as an example and he is obviously the type of guy that processes information using real world situations. Maybe he just wants to understand how the club works and how we can improve as an orgainzation.

So, rather than chastising the curious, why not promote and use the resources we have within the club? If someone has relavent business experience, we should welcome the input, not run away screaming.

Brooks Gremmels
11-19-2003, 12:24 PM
Greg, I am afraid you missed the point of the other posts but I'd just as soon not revisit it.
The club would welcome your help in any area in which you feel you can contribute. My last column in the Inside Line was on this very subject of volunteer services. If you have offered to help and not heard back, please recontact me or Nancy and we'll put you to work. I am not sure how this happened. If you have not yet volunteered, that is the way to make a positive contribution.
Promotions is one of the areas we could always use help with. This year we had a media kit put together for distribution to the region's newspspers and radio stations. KTVT (channel 11 in Dallas) came to the first Cresson race and filmed what was edited down to a 3 minute spot on the 10:00 PM news. RWorld and Cycle News are again carrying our event results along with 1/4 page announcements of CMRA alum's national/world championships (watch for one on Ben Spies coming up). We had the Editor of RRWorld fly in to make the Hall of Fame presentations last year with attendent coverage in the national publication.
Our membership and entry numbers are as good, or better than ever. A much stronger back gate (entries) and we'll have to look into three day weekends.
It is spectator turnout that we need to improve. We didn't use the opportunity to participate in a couple of motorcycle-related shows last winter. I doubt if this made any difference in spectator turnout but we are participating in one this weekend in Dallas, just in case.
Getting the event posters distributed in local dealerships, etc. has to help. But finding members who will follow-through on the jobs of taking them around in their hometowns has been a problem.
At anyrate, you won't get a complaint from any BOD member when you volunteer to help promote our club. Come on down!
brooks

Brooks Gremmels
11-19-2003, 12:24 PM
Greg, I am afraid you missed the point of the other posts but I'd just as soon not revisit it.
The club would welcome your help in any area in which you feel you can contribute. My last column in the Inside Line was on this very subject of volunteer services. If you have offered to help and not heard back, please recontact me or Nancy and we'll put you to work. I am not sure how this happened. If you have not yet volunteered, that is the way to make a positive contribution.
Promotions is one of the areas we could always use help with. This year we had a media kit put together for distribution to the region's newspspers and radio stations. KTVT (channel 11 in Dallas) came to the first Cresson race and filmed what was edited down to a 3 minute spot on the 10:00 PM news. RWorld and Cycle News are again carrying our event results along with 1/4 page announcements of CMRA alum's national/world championships (watch for one on Ben Spies coming up). We had the Editor of RRWorld fly in to make the Hall of Fame presentations last year with attendent coverage in the national publication.
Our membership and entry numbers are as good, or better than ever. A much stronger back gate (entries) and we'll have to look into three day weekends.
It is spectator turnout that we need to improve. We didn't use the opportunity to participate in a couple of motorcycle-related shows last winter. I doubt if this made any difference in spectator turnout but we are participating in one this weekend in Dallas, just in case.
Getting the event posters distributed in local dealerships, etc. has to help. But finding members who will follow-through on the jobs of taking them around in their hometowns has been a problem.
At anyrate, you won't get a complaint from any BOD member when you volunteer to help promote our club. Come on down!
brooks

Bryan Norton
11-19-2003, 01:10 PM
I actually disagree with this.

We do not want, nor need spectator attendance.

The liability involved (paying security to monitor street squids), the possible increase in thefts from lightly supervised spectators, and possible injuries in the infield outweigh the benefit of a paying spectator.

how so?

10 paying spectators = 10x$15 gate fee
$150. We don't even get 100% of the gate fee.
We don't get concessions revenue. We do get any profit from t-shirt sales, but honestly we sell these as inexpensively as possible for our racers.

So 10 spectators = less than $150.
1 racer = $15 gate fee, 3 entries at $130
$145.

Rather than work on increasing spectator attendance, we have been working on increasing racer attendance and opportunities for increasing participation. This has been proven with our link with LSTD.

IMO we do not need more spectators. Thats fun and looks cool, but not what club racing is designed for.
I couldn't imagine the pits full of non-racers cruising aroudn in circles, that would cause mor danger at tracks like Cresson with a fairly narrow pit road.

Bryan Norton
11-19-2003, 01:10 PM
I actually disagree with this.

We do not want, nor need spectator attendance.

The liability involved (paying security to monitor street squids), the possible increase in thefts from lightly supervised spectators, and possible injuries in the infield outweigh the benefit of a paying spectator.

how so?

10 paying spectators = 10x$15 gate fee
$150. We don't even get 100% of the gate fee.
We don't get concessions revenue. We do get any profit from t-shirt sales, but honestly we sell these as inexpensively as possible for our racers.

So 10 spectators = less than $150.
1 racer = $15 gate fee, 3 entries at $130
$145.

Rather than work on increasing spectator attendance, we have been working on increasing racer attendance and opportunities for increasing participation. This has been proven with our link with LSTD.

IMO we do not need more spectators. Thats fun and looks cool, but not what club racing is designed for.
I couldn't imagine the pits full of non-racers cruising aroudn in circles, that would cause mor danger at tracks like Cresson with a fairly narrow pit road.

GreSam
11-19-2003, 05:43 PM
Brooks - I understand about not wanting to revisit old issues. My apologies for bringing up a tired subject, I was simply unaware of the history and was only trying to see things from a new perspective.
If you are seeking help with promotion in the Dallas area, I will be happy to help.

Bryan - The only reason I am in the CMRA (as a racer) is because I was first at a race as a spectator. So, I completely disagree with what you are saying. I do see your point about liabilities, but perhaps we need to take more care to make the environment (the paddock) less dangerous or by controlling access within the pits. No one said we'd have 1,000 spectators, but if we close ourselves off from the public, and new racers, how are we to build the club?

GreSam
11-19-2003, 05:43 PM
Brooks - I understand about not wanting to revisit old issues. My apologies for bringing up a tired subject, I was simply unaware of the history and was only trying to see things from a new perspective.
If you are seeking help with promotion in the Dallas area, I will be happy to help.

Bryan - The only reason I am in the CMRA (as a racer) is because I was first at a race as a spectator. So, I completely disagree with what you are saying. I do see your point about liabilities, but perhaps we need to take more care to make the environment (the paddock) less dangerous or by controlling access within the pits. No one said we'd have 1,000 spectators, but if we close ourselves off from the public, and new racers, how are we to build the club?

Bryan Norton
11-19-2003, 06:28 PM
It is not that we make it private. It is that we are not in the business of spectators.
I know that doesn't make sense, especially to someone fairly new to the sport.
When I first joined CMRA I went up to Connie and Charles and began throwing all kinds of ideas at bringing spectators. They weren't interested and I didn't know why. Down the road I realized that the entire club would have to change if we drove a large number of spectators.
(Again, imagine the pits even at TWS with even more cars roving back and forth as racers tried to get to track entrance.)

As for growing, I don't want to sound cocky, but we can't grow a lot more than we already are. We are near the track limit in many classes. I don't think we had to turn down entries this year, but were literally only one or two entries away. A track can only hold so many bikes.
A few years ago we did have to do that in our endurance series. We turned down entries becuase the grid was full.
I'm not saying we don't have to continually promote the club, and I do enjoy a fair amount of spectators, but the club environment is not designed to handle such crowds.

One thing many people don't consider is that the liability insurance for a 'spectator' event is MUCH more expensive than a club event.

To go toward a spectator angle, the club would have to invest in advertising, and deal with increased security and insurance costs. These can quickly outweigh any advantages gained from a hundred or so spectators. With the exception of TWS, none of the other tracks can handle more than a few hundred tops.

What we can do is promote more to the bike and bike family crowds, push for more participation from local bike shops and bike clubs.

I also would like to see at least one 'big event' per year, where we do try to bring out racers from other regions and spectators. This event would be heavily promoted and held at a track that could sustain the crowds. It would be a 3-4 day event.(National Invitational maybe?)

BTW there was another organization a couple of years ago that entered the market and pushed hard for spectators. It wasn't as beneficial as they thought. There was indeed one single event with tons of spectators, but subsequent trips to that facility saw dramatic loss of spectators.

The pace of our races (21 in one day this year), the style of them, and the lack of any true mid-day trophy presentations makes watching the races very confusing for many. (Running up to 4 classes in one race is confusing for everyone!)

Regardless, I am a lame duck BoD member as my term is expiring very quickly. But I do want to try an enlighten especially the newer members why the CMRA has taken a somewhat lax approach to spectators specifically.

Bryan Norton
11-19-2003, 06:28 PM
It is not that we make it private. It is that we are not in the business of spectators.
I know that doesn't make sense, especially to someone fairly new to the sport.
When I first joined CMRA I went up to Connie and Charles and began throwing all kinds of ideas at bringing spectators. They weren't interested and I didn't know why. Down the road I realized that the entire club would have to change if we drove a large number of spectators.
(Again, imagine the pits even at TWS with even more cars roving back and forth as racers tried to get to track entrance.)

As for growing, I don't want to sound cocky, but we can't grow a lot more than we already are. We are near the track limit in many classes. I don't think we had to turn down entries this year, but were literally only one or two entries away. A track can only hold so many bikes.
A few years ago we did have to do that in our endurance series. We turned down entries becuase the grid was full.
I'm not saying we don't have to continually promote the club, and I do enjoy a fair amount of spectators, but the club environment is not designed to handle such crowds.

One thing many people don't consider is that the liability insurance for a 'spectator' event is MUCH more expensive than a club event.

To go toward a spectator angle, the club would have to invest in advertising, and deal with increased security and insurance costs. These can quickly outweigh any advantages gained from a hundred or so spectators. With the exception of TWS, none of the other tracks can handle more than a few hundred tops.

What we can do is promote more to the bike and bike family crowds, push for more participation from local bike shops and bike clubs.

I also would like to see at least one 'big event' per year, where we do try to bring out racers from other regions and spectators. This event would be heavily promoted and held at a track that could sustain the crowds. It would be a 3-4 day event.(National Invitational maybe?)

BTW there was another organization a couple of years ago that entered the market and pushed hard for spectators. It wasn't as beneficial as they thought. There was indeed one single event with tons of spectators, but subsequent trips to that facility saw dramatic loss of spectators.

The pace of our races (21 in one day this year), the style of them, and the lack of any true mid-day trophy presentations makes watching the races very confusing for many. (Running up to 4 classes in one race is confusing for everyone!)

Regardless, I am a lame duck BoD member as my term is expiring very quickly. But I do want to try an enlighten especially the newer members why the CMRA has taken a somewhat lax approach to spectators specifically.

GreSam
11-20-2003, 10:25 AM
Thank you, that's all I needed to hear. My apologies to all for stirring up any issues or creating any grief.

GreSam
11-20-2003, 10:25 AM
Thank you, that's all I needed to hear. My apologies to all for stirring up any issues or creating any grief.

Bryan Norton
11-20-2003, 11:46 AM
Greg -
no grief, no apoligies needed!

BTW - Your input and assistance could be valuable to the BoD regarding promotions. If you are interested in volunteering I would contact someone directly. BoD emails are provided on the Contacts page.

Bryan Norton
11-20-2003, 11:46 AM
Greg -
no grief, no apoligies needed!

BTW - Your input and assistance could be valuable to the BoD regarding promotions. If you are interested in volunteering I would contact someone directly. BoD emails are provided on the Contacts page.

G-Man
11-21-2003, 01:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One thing many people don't consider is that the liability insurance for a 'spectator' event is MUCH more expensive than a club event. </div></div>Since the CMRA allows spectators already, doesn't the club already carry sufficient liability coverage? Does holding "club" events allow for a certian # of spectators to be covered but any # over that level requires additional coverage mandated by a "spectator" event? If so what is the cost differences for said coverages?


In support of Greg, he has brought up a really good point.

If the CMRA is going to continue to grow and prosper then eventually the CMRA will have little choice but tap into and support the spectator market. Marcus posted an excellent opinion in one of the other threads that indicated that it is sponsor's main goal to get their product and/or company names out in front of potential customers. For many of the CMRA sponsors, CMRA spectators are a huge untapped market simply because we don't view them as a valuable resource. Wouldn't proposals to future possible sponsors appear much more atractive if we could show them increasing spectator attendance #'s in support of their ROI?

If profitibility is one of the key issues, then make it more profitable by renegotiating vendor and track contracts to compensate the CMRA for increased vendor and track revenues due to increased spectator patronage.

G-Man
11-21-2003, 01:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> One thing many people don't consider is that the liability insurance for a 'spectator' event is MUCH more expensive than a club event. </div></div>Since the CMRA allows spectators already, doesn't the club already carry sufficient liability coverage? Does holding "club" events allow for a certian # of spectators to be covered but any # over that level requires additional coverage mandated by a "spectator" event? If so what is the cost differences for said coverages?


In support of Greg, he has brought up a really good point.

If the CMRA is going to continue to grow and prosper then eventually the CMRA will have little choice but tap into and support the spectator market. Marcus posted an excellent opinion in one of the other threads that indicated that it is sponsor's main goal to get their product and/or company names out in front of potential customers. For many of the CMRA sponsors, CMRA spectators are a huge untapped market simply because we don't view them as a valuable resource. Wouldn't proposals to future possible sponsors appear much more atractive if we could show them increasing spectator attendance #'s in support of their ROI?

If profitibility is one of the key issues, then make it more profitable by renegotiating vendor and track contracts to compensate the CMRA for increased vendor and track revenues due to increased spectator patronage.

Bryan Norton
11-21-2003, 02:41 PM
Gordon,

You have many good ideas. Although I know that some may not be aware that the CMRA came within a hair of being banned from two tracks this year due to rider and spectator actions. To bring in any more volume would require an increase in staffing among many other things. The fact is we are having a hard time policing everyone as it is(and many feel like we are overbearing)

There are also venues that just don't fit with a spectator crowd. Oak Hill is a great track, but very spectator unfriendly. (not in view of the track but in facilities and proximity to large population areas)

I love it when people say "just re-negotiate the contracts". It aint that easy. Contrary to what racers think, we are not a big revenue generator for the tracks. They are not dependant upon our business to pay their bills. Some tracks are 'take it or leave it' propositions. This was a major factor in reducing TWS.

If we were to focus soley on profitability as you mentioned, TWS would be off the schedule entirely. I believe you were one of the ones who were very vocal about keeping TWS.

Secondly, there is an obvious split in theory as to what our club is supposed to provide for it's members, and how we spend our money. My goal for the club (was) to allow for as many riders as possible to enjoy the sport.

To grow spectators significantly, we would have to change our format (fewer races in the day, and fewer classes in each race). We would need to take time to do a legitimate trophy presentation in the middle of the day. We would have to provide entertainment between the daily events (wheely contests, trophy girls, etc) and make it a production rather than a club event.

Much of this would require more than our semi-volunteer staff. It would require 3 day weekends and most probably increased staff pay. All of these increases feed each other to eat away at the increased financials of a few hundred spectators (which we split their gate fee with the track)

All of this can be done. At the sacrifice of the smaller classes we run. We could easily do only the A, B, C, and maybe D Classes, and make a big production. We could pump up the cash purses into only those classes. We could drive our sponsorships to only those classes. All of that would benefit those riders.

That is not the charter of the CMRA, in my eyes. The purpose of the club is to promote enjoyable racing in the most cost effective manner for ALL racers. There are venues for the premier classes. My long term dream for the CMRA would be to promote a national series or even super-regional series with all the excitement mentioned above, including a huge spectator draw.

Its ok to disagree on visions. My vision for the CMRA is to sustain and improve, not re-invent. Im off the BoD and next year I won't be announcing. I've worked for the CMRA for 10 years, and I want to go race and enjoy my days. I can't wait until I can hit the bottle, or leave at a respectable hour for a change.


Please volunteer your time with the CMRA to help, though. You bring something to the table, and I would think your assistance would be welcome. Maybe you can arrive on Fridays to help set up the track, or stay late on Sundays after the races to help pack up, or possibly something different altogether (distribute flyers ar motorcycle friendly establishments?)
Contact any of the BoD members directly to volunteer.

Bryan Norton
11-21-2003, 02:41 PM
Gordon,

You have many good ideas. Although I know that some may not be aware that the CMRA came within a hair of being banned from two tracks this year due to rider and spectator actions. To bring in any more volume would require an increase in staffing among many other things. The fact is we are having a hard time policing everyone as it is(and many feel like we are overbearing)

There are also venues that just don't fit with a spectator crowd. Oak Hill is a great track, but very spectator unfriendly. (not in view of the track but in facilities and proximity to large population areas)

I love it when people say "just re-negotiate the contracts". It aint that easy. Contrary to what racers think, we are not a big revenue generator for the tracks. They are not dependant upon our business to pay their bills. Some tracks are 'take it or leave it' propositions. This was a major factor in reducing TWS.

If we were to focus soley on profitability as you mentioned, TWS would be off the schedule entirely. I believe you were one of the ones who were very vocal about keeping TWS.

Secondly, there is an obvious split in theory as to what our club is supposed to provide for it's members, and how we spend our money. My goal for the club (was) to allow for as many riders as possible to enjoy the sport.

To grow spectators significantly, we would have to change our format (fewer races in the day, and fewer classes in each race). We would need to take time to do a legitimate trophy presentation in the middle of the day. We would have to provide entertainment between the daily events (wheely contests, trophy girls, etc) and make it a production rather than a club event.

Much of this would require more than our semi-volunteer staff. It would require 3 day weekends and most probably increased staff pay. All of these increases feed each other to eat away at the increased financials of a few hundred spectators (which we split their gate fee with the track)

All of this can be done. At the sacrifice of the smaller classes we run. We could easily do only the A, B, C, and maybe D Classes, and make a big production. We could pump up the cash purses into only those classes. We could drive our sponsorships to only those classes. All of that would benefit those riders.

That is not the charter of the CMRA, in my eyes. The purpose of the club is to promote enjoyable racing in the most cost effective manner for ALL racers. There are venues for the premier classes. My long term dream for the CMRA would be to promote a national series or even super-regional series with all the excitement mentioned above, including a huge spectator draw.

Its ok to disagree on visions. My vision for the CMRA is to sustain and improve, not re-invent. Im off the BoD and next year I won't be announcing. I've worked for the CMRA for 10 years, and I want to go race and enjoy my days. I can't wait until I can hit the bottle, or leave at a respectable hour for a change.


Please volunteer your time with the CMRA to help, though. You bring something to the table, and I would think your assistance would be welcome. Maybe you can arrive on Fridays to help set up the track, or stay late on Sundays after the races to help pack up, or possibly something different altogether (distribute flyers ar motorcycle friendly establishments?)
Contact any of the BoD members directly to volunteer.

G-Man
11-21-2003, 03:28 PM
Bryan,

Thanks for your input.

It was not my goal to re-invent the wheel and I genuinely feel that the CMRA could easily continue on its current course and still continue to be the premier club racing organization in the US. My response was simply to add that increasing spectator turn-out has more positive impact to the CMRA than just generating direct dollar revenue. Spectator's are critical to sponsors and I strongly believe that a positive marketing presence by the CMRA could go along way to offset the negative press that motorcycling/sportbikes as a whole gets more and more each day due to street stunting and high-speed squid pursuits.

I understand that TWS is less profitable than other venues based on several responses here but my subsequent requests for information regarding event weekend financials went unanswered so I can't really speak to the fiscal ramifications of increased insurance costs, additional security or manpower that might be required by additional spectators (over what we currently require). The fact is that that any marketing push by the CMRA by promoting event weekends is going to increase spectator turnout in some way so we need to be prepared for it even if we don't actively seek it. Contrary to popular belief many individuals are not prepared to pay the cost of a trackday to gain initial insight to the CMRA and club-racing experience and naturally will want to attend a CMRA event as a spectator to get their first "taste" of club-level racing. I would think that from a spectator standpoint, everyone would agree that TWS is the best venue the CMRA currently has. I don't doubt that it will have challenges (mgmt, racer safety, pit security, parking, etc.) but I'm confident that they all could be overcome if required.

Regarding contract negotiations, I can't speak specifically to the CMRA's negotiations with track owners but as a technology architect for Fortune 100 companies I have some expereince issuing RFP's, negotiating contracts and managing SLA's. If I've learned anything about it from doing it for over 17 years it's that anything is possible when it comes to terms of a contract but you will never get what you don't ask for, period.

As for volunteering, I've offered on separate occasions to both Brooks and Jess to provide assistance with computer (both technical and procurement) support and both WEB and message board admin support. Jess does a huge job managing and maintaining the board; he doesn't need my assistance by any means but I offered it on the chance that he might like to have it irregardless. I would also be more than happy to support the CMRA in distributing information and acting as a point of contact to dealers and clubs/organizations in the Houston area.

[EDIT] Corrected some spelling mistakes. Apparently, misspelled content in posts really, really irks Tony Moore, /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .

G-Man
11-21-2003, 03:28 PM
Bryan,

Thanks for your input.

It was not my goal to re-invent the wheel and I genuinely feel that the CMRA could easily continue on its current course and still continue to be the premier club racing organization in the US. My response was simply to add that increasing spectator turn-out has more positive impact to the CMRA than just generating direct dollar revenue. Spectator's are critical to sponsors and I strongly believe that a positive marketing presence by the CMRA could go along way to offset the negative press that motorcycling/sportbikes as a whole gets more and more each day due to street stunting and high-speed squid pursuits.

I understand that TWS is less profitable than other venues based on several responses here but my subsequent requests for information regarding event weekend financials went unanswered so I can't really speak to the fiscal ramifications of increased insurance costs, additional security or manpower that might be required by additional spectators (over what we currently require). The fact is that that any marketing push by the CMRA by promoting event weekends is going to increase spectator turnout in some way so we need to be prepared for it even if we don't actively seek it. Contrary to popular belief many individuals are not prepared to pay the cost of a trackday to gain initial insight to the CMRA and club-racing experience and naturally will want to attend a CMRA event as a spectator to get their first "taste" of club-level racing. I would think that from a spectator standpoint, everyone would agree that TWS is the best venue the CMRA currently has. I don't doubt that it will have challenges (mgmt, racer safety, pit security, parking, etc.) but I'm confident that they all could be overcome if required.

Regarding contract negotiations, I can't speak specifically to the CMRA's negotiations with track owners but as a technology architect for Fortune 100 companies I have some expereince issuing RFP's, negotiating contracts and managing SLA's. If I've learned anything about it from doing it for over 17 years it's that anything is possible when it comes to terms of a contract but you will never get what you don't ask for, period.

As for volunteering, I've offered on separate occasions to both Brooks and Jess to provide assistance with computer (both technical and procurement) support and both WEB and message board admin support. Jess does a huge job managing and maintaining the board; he doesn't need my assistance by any means but I offered it on the chance that he might like to have it irregardless. I would also be more than happy to support the CMRA in distributing information and acting as a point of contact to dealers and clubs/organizations in the Houston area.

[EDIT] Corrected some spelling mistakes. Apparently, misspelled content in posts really, really irks Tony Moore, /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .

tschoepe
12-15-2003, 10:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
I would think that from a spectator standpoint, everyone would agree that TWS is the best venue the CMRA currently has. . </div></div>Oooh,

Hate to even reply to any thread with Gordan in it, but my wife would argue this one big time. Clean bathrooms, nice second floor veranda where you can see the whole track...she loves MSR. She's a spectator. She barely tolerates TWS...would you sit on one of those toilets?!?

Part of the TWS "problem" is TWS staff and attitude, not the CMRA's.

Personally, I'd like to offer a solution. Every member send $1000 to me, and I'll build and manage a motorcycle only track in the Austin area. CMRA members get a discount ('cause you sent the $1000), and we'll have a Hooters on site in the pit area shared with spectator space. :rolleyes:

Pretty darn cool, eh? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'll be waiting for the checks to come in the mail.

Daryl

tschoepe
12-15-2003, 10:14 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Gordon Salisbury:
I would think that from a spectator standpoint, everyone would agree that TWS is the best venue the CMRA currently has. . </div></div>Oooh,

Hate to even reply to any thread with Gordan in it, but my wife would argue this one big time. Clean bathrooms, nice second floor veranda where you can see the whole track...she loves MSR. She's a spectator. She barely tolerates TWS...would you sit on one of those toilets?!?

Part of the TWS "problem" is TWS staff and attitude, not the CMRA's.

Personally, I'd like to offer a solution. Every member send $1000 to me, and I'll build and manage a motorcycle only track in the Austin area. CMRA members get a discount ('cause you sent the $1000), and we'll have a Hooters on site in the pit area shared with spectator space. :rolleyes:

Pretty darn cool, eh? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'll be waiting for the checks to come in the mail.

Daryl

tschoepe
12-15-2003, 10:17 PM
Jess!

Why does it say "Junior Member?"

You said you wouldn't tell anybody!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Daryl

Injecting bad humor into threads that have gotten way to serious throughout the 21st century.

tschoepe
12-15-2003, 10:17 PM
Jess!

Why does it say "Junior Member?"

You said you wouldn't tell anybody!

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Daryl

Injecting bad humor into threads that have gotten way to serious throughout the 21st century.

G-Man
12-16-2003, 12:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hate to even reply to any thread with Gordan in it </div></div>First, you think that someone with a last name like yours that most likely gets slaughtered on a regular basis you would at least make an effort to spell my name correctly. It's Gordon, not Gordan.

Secondly, I never said that MSR didn't have nice facilities and I agree with your wife that the restrooms are newer/nicer than at TWS, but the reality is that MSR just wasn't originally designed with large spectator crowds in mind where TWS originally was.

Just how many people are you going to squeeze into that 2nd floor observation room and are they going to be required to bring their own chairs? Wouldn't it be nice if another vantage point to watch the action than just the front straight was available? What about food and drink concessions with tables/chairs? How about convenient spectator parking? What about the fact that TWS is more centrally located providing the opportunity for far better turnout from cities other than just the Metroplex?

Strangely enough, you and I are in agreement in that promoting spectator turnout at TWS would have it's challenges (I clearly stated so in my last post) so I'm at a loss regarding your inference that I implied that the issues at TWS were the club's alone.

G-Man
12-16-2003, 12:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hate to even reply to any thread with Gordan in it </div></div>First, you think that someone with a last name like yours that most likely gets slaughtered on a regular basis you would at least make an effort to spell my name correctly. It's Gordon, not Gordan.

Secondly, I never said that MSR didn't have nice facilities and I agree with your wife that the restrooms are newer/nicer than at TWS, but the reality is that MSR just wasn't originally designed with large spectator crowds in mind where TWS originally was.

Just how many people are you going to squeeze into that 2nd floor observation room and are they going to be required to bring their own chairs? Wouldn't it be nice if another vantage point to watch the action than just the front straight was available? What about food and drink concessions with tables/chairs? How about convenient spectator parking? What about the fact that TWS is more centrally located providing the opportunity for far better turnout from cities other than just the Metroplex?

Strangely enough, you and I are in agreement in that promoting spectator turnout at TWS would have it's challenges (I clearly stated so in my last post) so I'm at a loss regarding your inference that I implied that the issues at TWS were the club's alone.