PDA

View Full Version : Novice to Expert



Ty Howard
10-26-2004, 11:25 AM
Just wanted to say that I thought the system for making novice move up to expert is excellent.

I do however have a couple questions.

I noticed that some of the novices that are being forced to move up have never finished in the top three. They just consistently finished every race.
Some of them are first year novices and could use another year of experience before going on to expert.
I was wondering if riders that have less than two years of experience and have a score under .700 can ask to remain a novice for another year?

Ty Howard
10-26-2004, 11:25 AM
Just wanted to say that I thought the system for making novice move up to expert is excellent.

I do however have a couple questions.

I noticed that some of the novices that are being forced to move up have never finished in the top three. They just consistently finished every race.
Some of them are first year novices and could use another year of experience before going on to expert.
I was wondering if riders that have less than two years of experience and have a score under .700 can ask to remain a novice for another year?

Norm McDonald
10-26-2004, 11:57 AM
Ty As always if a Novice doesn't think they are ready they can ask the BOD to review thier request to stay novice the board and race director look at there past results and either grant or deny it.The race director is aware of most riders performance. We don't want to move anyone up that isn't ready.Thanks Norm

Norm McDonald
10-26-2004, 11:57 AM
Ty As always if a Novice doesn't think they are ready they can ask the BOD to review thier request to stay novice the board and race director look at there past results and either grant or deny it.The race director is aware of most riders performance. We don't want to move anyone up that isn't ready.Thanks Norm

derricksmith
10-26-2004, 12:28 PM
I would like to ask the BOD to review my advancement...what's the best way? What procedures need to be followed?

derricksmith
10-26-2004, 12:28 PM
I would like to ask the BOD to review my advancement...what's the best way? What procedures need to be followed?

Norm McDonald
10-26-2004, 12:55 PM
Derrick Just write down why you are not ready and send it to Nancy. Do this asap. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-26-2004, 12:55 PM
Derrick Just write down why you are not ready and send it to Nancy. Do this asap. Norm

darick
10-26-2004, 01:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Derrick Smith:
I would like to ask the BOD to review my advancement...what's the best way? What procedures need to be followed? </div></div>Oh c'mon, I saw you chasing me at MSR this May /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif Besides, I don't want you returning the favor :p

your ready to be an expert Derrick /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

darick
10-26-2004, 01:49 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Derrick Smith:
I would like to ask the BOD to review my advancement...what's the best way? What procedures need to be followed? </div></div>Oh c'mon, I saw you chasing me at MSR this May /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif Besides, I don't want you returning the favor :p

your ready to be an expert Derrick /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Ty Howard
10-26-2004, 02:08 PM
The biggest reason I brought this subject up was so that the BOD could let novices know that they can ask for the BOD to review their status. Alot novices do not realize they can do that. Some do not want to ride with experts so they quit.

Thank you Norm, you posted exactly what many novices wanted to hear.

Ty Howard
10-26-2004, 02:08 PM
The biggest reason I brought this subject up was so that the BOD could let novices know that they can ask for the BOD to review their status. Alot novices do not realize they can do that. Some do not want to ride with experts so they quit.

Thank you Norm, you posted exactly what many novices wanted to hear.

Christopher Corder
10-26-2004, 03:04 PM
What about those of us who wanted to be Experts but are still Novices? :p


just kidding.

Christopher Corder
10-26-2004, 03:04 PM
What about those of us who wanted to be Experts but are still Novices? :p


just kidding.

SAM ROMEO
10-26-2004, 09:30 PM
Christopher
I wonder if we have a procedure for sending very slow experts back to the novice ranks so we'd have fewer moving chichanes on race day??
I bet Ty, Shannon, Logan and a few others could appreciate that..

SAM ROMEO
10-26-2004, 09:30 PM
Christopher
I wonder if we have a procedure for sending very slow experts back to the novice ranks so we'd have fewer moving chichanes on race day??
I bet Ty, Shannon, Logan and a few others could appreciate that..

JesseJohnson
10-27-2004, 09:57 AM
Sam, that's a pretty arrogant statement. Remember this is CLUB racing.

JesseJohnson
10-27-2004, 09:57 AM
Sam, that's a pretty arrogant statement. Remember this is CLUB racing.

SAM ROMEO
10-27-2004, 11:52 AM
Jess
I beg to differ with you on this. In my racing days before many of you were even hatched yet, I was one of those back markers. I didn't have the ability and was afraid of the damage I might do to others and myself, so I hung it up and got my jollies building competitive bikes for good riders like David Cheek,Mark Campisi, Andy Robbins, Steve Darley, Jeff Berglund and a few others. We won lots of club races and even finished either 8th or 9th (8th overall in Superbike at Daytona in '81 - our 1st AMA race)in four AMA Superbike races we entered.
Jack and a few of the other old timers like me can relate horror stories like Mister Bill Beneker taking out pro riders like Honda's Mike Baldwin at Road America and others at AMA races. I remember a big pile up in turn one at TWS caused by my good friend Karl Lehman.
I'm really sorry that you took offence to what I said, but I sincerely beleive what I said to be accurate. I've thought about how you worded your verbal hit on me and I can only assume that you think I'm gloating because my son did well as a novice. My son had a better motorcycle in most of those races that I spent a lot of time and money on. He's a good club level rider but he isn't Ty,Logan,Shannon or Eric and possibly never will be.
My only concern is the safety of all of our riders, not what color number plate they have. I've spoken to several of our club officials recently about keeping my son back in the novice ranks because he's going to be riding a GSXR600 in a number of races next year and he hasn't been very fast on big bikes in the past. I've decided not to send the letter to Walter requesting he be held back only because I was affraid of the flack everyone might get if he was alowed to stay a novice.
Again I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

SAM ROMEO
10-27-2004, 11:52 AM
Jess
I beg to differ with you on this. In my racing days before many of you were even hatched yet, I was one of those back markers. I didn't have the ability and was afraid of the damage I might do to others and myself, so I hung it up and got my jollies building competitive bikes for good riders like David Cheek,Mark Campisi, Andy Robbins, Steve Darley, Jeff Berglund and a few others. We won lots of club races and even finished either 8th or 9th (8th overall in Superbike at Daytona in '81 - our 1st AMA race)in four AMA Superbike races we entered.
Jack and a few of the other old timers like me can relate horror stories like Mister Bill Beneker taking out pro riders like Honda's Mike Baldwin at Road America and others at AMA races. I remember a big pile up in turn one at TWS caused by my good friend Karl Lehman.
I'm really sorry that you took offence to what I said, but I sincerely beleive what I said to be accurate. I've thought about how you worded your verbal hit on me and I can only assume that you think I'm gloating because my son did well as a novice. My son had a better motorcycle in most of those races that I spent a lot of time and money on. He's a good club level rider but he isn't Ty,Logan,Shannon or Eric and possibly never will be.
My only concern is the safety of all of our riders, not what color number plate they have. I've spoken to several of our club officials recently about keeping my son back in the novice ranks because he's going to be riding a GSXR600 in a number of races next year and he hasn't been very fast on big bikes in the past. I've decided not to send the letter to Walter requesting he be held back only because I was affraid of the flack everyone might get if he was alowed to stay a novice.
Again I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:12 PM
So what your saying Sam is that we should have
timed qualifying and send people home after morning practice?

I have friends that race in Europe and Asia
at "club level". Allot of their organizations make them do timed qualifying. If you don't make
110% you go home.

Jason Pirtle turned a :28 in F2 at the last Oak Hill.

110% would be :36.

Miki Espiritu turned a :38 in the same race.

Should he not be allowed to race?

I kinda thought we were the CMRA a racing CLUB.

Not the AMA where the factory SB riders piss and
moan about slow privateers.

Of coarse if the slow privateers didn't show there
would be only about 5-10 bikes in every race.

(sorry for using Jason and Miki as examples, it was just the first sheets that I came to where there was a major discrepancy)

And BTW: the guys who get sent home don't get a
refund.

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:12 PM
So what your saying Sam is that we should have
timed qualifying and send people home after morning practice?

I have friends that race in Europe and Asia
at "club level". Allot of their organizations make them do timed qualifying. If you don't make
110% you go home.

Jason Pirtle turned a :28 in F2 at the last Oak Hill.

110% would be :36.

Miki Espiritu turned a :38 in the same race.

Should he not be allowed to race?

I kinda thought we were the CMRA a racing CLUB.

Not the AMA where the factory SB riders piss and
moan about slow privateers.

Of coarse if the slow privateers didn't show there
would be only about 5-10 bikes in every race.

(sorry for using Jason and Miki as examples, it was just the first sheets that I came to where there was a major discrepancy)

And BTW: the guys who get sent home don't get a
refund.

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:20 PM
<<I bet Ty, Shannon, Logan and a few others could appreciate that..>>

AND....

AMA, WSB, Moto GP, they all have lappers.

I suppose our truly gifted riders who actually do make it out of our club to a more professional
level should have to learn to deal with lappers
only after they make it to the big time?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Any rider that truly believes that another rider is dangerous and doesn't ask Walter to talk to him or better yet go speak to him your self is
doing the rider, your self and the club a disservice. Some people don't know they are riding squirrelly.

I'm the perfect example. I'm a slow expert. I am
also smart enough to recognize it and stay off big bikes and out of peoples ways.

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:20 PM
<<I bet Ty, Shannon, Logan and a few others could appreciate that..>>

AND....

AMA, WSB, Moto GP, they all have lappers.

I suppose our truly gifted riders who actually do make it out of our club to a more professional
level should have to learn to deal with lappers
only after they make it to the big time?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Any rider that truly believes that another rider is dangerous and doesn't ask Walter to talk to him or better yet go speak to him your self is
doing the rider, your self and the club a disservice. Some people don't know they are riding squirrelly.

I'm the perfect example. I'm a slow expert. I am
also smart enough to recognize it and stay off big bikes and out of peoples ways.

SAM ROMEO
10-27-2004, 02:21 PM
Emmitt
I'm not advocating any change. The politics involved would cause a ton of bruised egos and more b/s than the law allows so to speak. I would hope that folks who happen to be in the group of riders we're discussing would volunteer to step back, but any attempt to force something like that would be catastrophic to the club and any person that attempted it. Its kind of like wearing a helmet - any person of average intelligence knows its best to do so, but they will usually oppose any helmet law requiring their use. This would be the same..

SAM ROMEO
10-27-2004, 02:21 PM
Emmitt
I'm not advocating any change. The politics involved would cause a ton of bruised egos and more b/s than the law allows so to speak. I would hope that folks who happen to be in the group of riders we're discussing would volunteer to step back, but any attempt to force something like that would be catastrophic to the club and any person that attempted it. Its kind of like wearing a helmet - any person of average intelligence knows its best to do so, but they will usually oppose any helmet law requiring their use. This would be the same..

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:37 PM
Posted Oct. 26 -

<<I wonder if we have a procedure for sending very slow experts back to the novice ranks so we'd have fewer moving chichanes on race day??>>

Posted Oct. 27 -

<<but I sincerely beleive what I said to be accurate.>>

Posted Oct. 27 -

<<I'm not advocating any change.>>


Ah....Okay? Obviously I missread something. :rolleyes:

cedestech
10-27-2004, 02:37 PM
Posted Oct. 26 -

<<I wonder if we have a procedure for sending very slow experts back to the novice ranks so we'd have fewer moving chichanes on race day??>>

Posted Oct. 27 -

<<but I sincerely beleive what I said to be accurate.>>

Posted Oct. 27 -

<<I'm not advocating any change.>>


Ah....Okay? Obviously I missread something. :rolleyes:

Steve Breen
10-27-2004, 03:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Ty Howard:
The biggest reason I brought this subject up was so that the BOD could let novices know that they can ask for the BOD to review their status. Alot novices do not realize they can do that. Some do not want to ride with experts so they quit.</div></div>That's a reeeaallly good point.

Steve Breen
10-27-2004, 03:43 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Ty Howard:
The biggest reason I brought this subject up was so that the BOD could let novices know that they can ask for the BOD to review their status. Alot novices do not realize they can do that. Some do not want to ride with experts so they quit.</div></div>That's a reeeaallly good point.

Nancy Selleck
10-27-2004, 05:06 PM
It's not a secret...it's on page 5 of the 2004 rulebook:

"Novice riders who meet or exceed the requirement of Expert classification will be promoted to Expert status at the end of the racing season. The method of advancement is by the 'rider index' formula which is a mathematical formula which factors both finishes and field sizes. The current Rider Index formula may be obtained by contacting the CMRA office.

Novice riders not meeting the criteria may apply for advancement to Expert status by submitting a written request to the CMRA office, which may or may not be allowed pending review of the rider's performance and finishes by the CMRA Board of Directors. Riders may decline advancement via writing or email to CMRA if they feel they are not ready to compete on the Expert level, and may or may not be allowed to retain Novice status pending review of the rider's performance and finishes by the CMRA Board of Directors."

Nancy Selleck
10-27-2004, 05:06 PM
It's not a secret...it's on page 5 of the 2004 rulebook:

"Novice riders who meet or exceed the requirement of Expert classification will be promoted to Expert status at the end of the racing season. The method of advancement is by the 'rider index' formula which is a mathematical formula which factors both finishes and field sizes. The current Rider Index formula may be obtained by contacting the CMRA office.

Novice riders not meeting the criteria may apply for advancement to Expert status by submitting a written request to the CMRA office, which may or may not be allowed pending review of the rider's performance and finishes by the CMRA Board of Directors. Riders may decline advancement via writing or email to CMRA if they feel they are not ready to compete on the Expert level, and may or may not be allowed to retain Novice status pending review of the rider's performance and finishes by the CMRA Board of Directors."

JesseJohnson
10-27-2004, 05:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by SAM ROMEO:
Jess
He's a good club level rider but he isn't Ty,Logan,Shannon or Eric and possibly never will be.
</div></div>We have several hundred other expert riders who are not as fast as those guys either. That's because it is a club, not the pros. You have to compare yourself to the majority, not the AMA guys chasing contingency.

Your son will not be a problem for the experts in the 600 classes. I doubt very seriously that he will get lapped. So what if he does. I would rather get lapped by Ty and Ball than banging bars with a bunch of amped up novice riders. Not to mention that expert practice is much less crowded and much more sane than amatuer practice. It's a much better place to work on your setup and skills.

Better yet, have him stay on the SV and bang bars with Eric Falt. That will teach him to ride a hell of a lot more than messing around in the 600's classes.

J

JesseJohnson
10-27-2004, 05:58 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by SAM ROMEO:
Jess
He's a good club level rider but he isn't Ty,Logan,Shannon or Eric and possibly never will be.
</div></div>We have several hundred other expert riders who are not as fast as those guys either. That's because it is a club, not the pros. You have to compare yourself to the majority, not the AMA guys chasing contingency.

Your son will not be a problem for the experts in the 600 classes. I doubt very seriously that he will get lapped. So what if he does. I would rather get lapped by Ty and Ball than banging bars with a bunch of amped up novice riders. Not to mention that expert practice is much less crowded and much more sane than amatuer practice. It's a much better place to work on your setup and skills.

Better yet, have him stay on the SV and bang bars with Eric Falt. That will teach him to ride a hell of a lot more than messing around in the 600's classes.

J

John Orchard
10-28-2004, 08:07 AM
Debating slower EX's is kinda silly since we combine EX & AM's in many of the races throughout the day.

John Orchard
10-28-2004, 08:07 AM
Debating slower EX's is kinda silly since we combine EX & AM's in many of the races throughout the day.

Ty Howard
10-28-2004, 01:29 PM
The competition in the CMRA is fast. Even the guys getting lapped are fast. We have the fastest club in the U.S. We proved it at Mid Ohio.
I have lapped slower people in the AMA than I lap in CMRA combined races. Even the CMRA novices are super fast. They hold their line better and are more predictable than AMA riders. The problem is that when they move up they have to compete against experts from the fasting club in america. So many will become discouraged and quit if they don't show quick results. But, everyone has to pay there dues. All the riders winning today, weren't always winning and they paid there dues.

I agree with Jess about riding expert being a better place than riding in novice races. I never got to ride novice roadracing but i did ride novice motorcross. That was the craziest class I ever rode. When I moved up a class my results were better. The reason was because the experienced riders pulled me along to faster times. But, most importantly they were smoother and I was more comfortable being close to them.

Riding in the Expert classes will make you faster. When you ride with faster people you can't help but get faster.

Most importantly we want are club to continue to grow. We get lots of new people in every year. Unfortunately we lose alot every year also. The expert class needs to grow but we have alot of first year experts quiting. We have to search for ways to pull them through the rookie years with more confidence. The current expert field looks very talented. We need all them to stay put. With all the new rookie experts coming, it could be an awesome year for CMRA expert classes.

Ty Howard
10-28-2004, 01:29 PM
The competition in the CMRA is fast. Even the guys getting lapped are fast. We have the fastest club in the U.S. We proved it at Mid Ohio.
I have lapped slower people in the AMA than I lap in CMRA combined races. Even the CMRA novices are super fast. They hold their line better and are more predictable than AMA riders. The problem is that when they move up they have to compete against experts from the fasting club in america. So many will become discouraged and quit if they don't show quick results. But, everyone has to pay there dues. All the riders winning today, weren't always winning and they paid there dues.

I agree with Jess about riding expert being a better place than riding in novice races. I never got to ride novice roadracing but i did ride novice motorcross. That was the craziest class I ever rode. When I moved up a class my results were better. The reason was because the experienced riders pulled me along to faster times. But, most importantly they were smoother and I was more comfortable being close to them.

Riding in the Expert classes will make you faster. When you ride with faster people you can't help but get faster.

Most importantly we want are club to continue to grow. We get lots of new people in every year. Unfortunately we lose alot every year also. The expert class needs to grow but we have alot of first year experts quiting. We have to search for ways to pull them through the rookie years with more confidence. The current expert field looks very talented. We need all them to stay put. With all the new rookie experts coming, it could be an awesome year for CMRA expert classes.

SAM ROMEO
10-29-2004, 10:12 PM
Jess
I'm already doing as you suggested and building 2 new SV's for Bubba to ride next year. I'd love to see him hang with Eric next season. I just hope I'm not making a mistake in putting a rookie on 3 different bikes on race day. I have to admit that John had a valid point in that we have both novices and experts together in several races already.

SAM ROMEO
10-29-2004, 10:12 PM
Jess
I'm already doing as you suggested and building 2 new SV's for Bubba to ride next year. I'd love to see him hang with Eric next season. I just hope I'm not making a mistake in putting a rookie on 3 different bikes on race day. I have to admit that John had a valid point in that we have both novices and experts together in several races already.