PDA

View Full Version : Protest Procedure Proposal: Comments, please



Steve Breen
10-13-2005, 12:03 PM
I've been talking with various racers about our current protest period policy and it's percetion as 'awkward' from a race day perspective. Please note this has not been presented to the other BoD members yet, I'm using this forum as a 'sounding board' to fine tune these ideas.

I understand the staff's perspective with regard to the existing policy, and I'm now looking for racer feedback on this proposal from a racer's prespective. (It's always a balance)

The following is a possible 'racer friendly' solution that is hopefully 'staff friendly' as well.

Proposed Solution:
-----------------------------
(For sake of discussion, assume 20 races on Sunday.)

After (for example) race 5 is complete, announce over the PA "Provisional Results for Races 1-5 are now posted, you have 1 hour to protest these results before they are made final."

For Endurance races, a simple PA announcement "Provisional Endurance results are now posted, you have 1 hour to protest these results before they are made final"
------------------------------


It seems the current policy which gives a 30 min window from whenever the posting of the result occurs (which is typically 10 mins after the race, but is essentially an unknown) gets a bit fuzzy in execution, especially when racers have so much stuff going on, racing closely clustered races, etc.

By a) announcing the start of the protest period and b) "grouping" races together for this protest period this could potentially be streamline this task a bit for the racer.


Looking forward to hearing thoughtful responses.

Steve Breen
10-13-2005, 12:03 PM
I've been talking with various racers about our current protest period policy and it's percetion as 'awkward' from a race day perspective. Please note this has not been presented to the other BoD members yet, I'm using this forum as a 'sounding board' to fine tune these ideas.

I understand the staff's perspective with regard to the existing policy, and I'm now looking for racer feedback on this proposal from a racer's prespective. (It's always a balance)

The following is a possible 'racer friendly' solution that is hopefully 'staff friendly' as well.

Proposed Solution:
-----------------------------
(For sake of discussion, assume 20 races on Sunday.)

After (for example) race 5 is complete, announce over the PA "Provisional Results for Races 1-5 are now posted, you have 1 hour to protest these results before they are made final."

For Endurance races, a simple PA announcement "Provisional Endurance results are now posted, you have 1 hour to protest these results before they are made final"
------------------------------


It seems the current policy which gives a 30 min window from whenever the posting of the result occurs (which is typically 10 mins after the race, but is essentially an unknown) gets a bit fuzzy in execution, especially when racers have so much stuff going on, racing closely clustered races, etc.

By a) announcing the start of the protest period and b) "grouping" races together for this protest period this could potentially be streamline this task a bit for the racer.


Looking forward to hearing thoughtful responses.

Jason Keene
10-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Sounds good to me...

Jason Keene
10-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Sounds good to me...

10-13-2005, 03:16 PM
That sounds real good! It also seems like it would be easier for the staff.

10-13-2005, 03:16 PM
That sounds real good! It also seems like it would be easier for the staff.

TFox
10-13-2005, 05:50 PM
Announcements sound like a really good idea. Of course, the tracks have varying degrees of success of MAKING announcements heard! Announcements are still better than no announcements. Good thinking, Steve!

TFox
10-13-2005, 05:50 PM
Announcements sound like a really good idea. Of course, the tracks have varying degrees of success of MAKING announcements heard! Announcements are still better than no announcements. Good thinking, Steve!

Jim Falconi
10-13-2005, 07:20 PM
Leave the protest period open indefinitely, recount the votes over and over, bring in a Federal Judge to describe a "non-hanging chad", "pregnant chad", and/or a "hanging chad" and spend millions of taxpayer $$$, then.....
oh wait, different protest. Sorry.
One hour protest period and PA announcements sound like a plan.

Jim Falconi
10-13-2005, 07:20 PM
Leave the protest period open indefinitely, recount the votes over and over, bring in a Federal Judge to describe a "non-hanging chad", "pregnant chad", and/or a "hanging chad" and spend millions of taxpayer $$$, then.....
oh wait, different protest. Sorry.
One hour protest period and PA announcements sound like a plan.

Chris Kotowski
10-13-2005, 10:06 PM
So now we are suggesting that timing and scoring can't be unplugged for an hour after the last race and those that raced in it wont have the same benefit as to knowing the out come unless they wait around. We're spending alot of energy monkeying with a process that works well. except in a few special (spelled - self induced) instances.

Chris Kotowski
10-13-2005, 10:06 PM
So now we are suggesting that timing and scoring can't be unplugged for an hour after the last race and those that raced in it wont have the same benefit as to knowing the out come unless they wait around. We're spending alot of energy monkeying with a process that works well. except in a few special (spelled - self induced) instances.

Nancy Selleck
10-13-2005, 10:27 PM
This is all about trying to fix something that isn't really broken.

There were less than 5 riders all season who wanted to protest results after the 30-minute protest period. All of them missed the deadline because they did not know the procedure for filing a protest and that was because they did not read the rulebook.

The 30-minute protest period is standard procedure for ALL road racing organizations in the U.S. If anyone from the CMRA races with any other road racing organization in the U.S. they better be prepared for that rule wherever they go (including the AMA). I sincerely doubt that the other organizations are going to change their rulebooks to accommodate the fact that someone raced with them and were unfamiliar with their rules.

We have an announcer at every one of our races. We give him a copy of the results when we post them and he announces that they have been posted. We do race at tracks where the P.A. systems are less than ideal, but we broadcast on an FM frequency that can be picked up on any FM radio. The FM frequency is listed on the back of the race schedule at every track, so even if the PA system isn't working very well, all announcements can be heard on an FM radio.

FYI, I have been involved in road racing and running road racing events all over the country for over 20 years. Most of our staff have been at it for quite a while and I have a feeling that our staff have a pretty good idea about what will be easier for the staff.

Nancy Selleck
10-13-2005, 10:27 PM
This is all about trying to fix something that isn't really broken.

There were less than 5 riders all season who wanted to protest results after the 30-minute protest period. All of them missed the deadline because they did not know the procedure for filing a protest and that was because they did not read the rulebook.

The 30-minute protest period is standard procedure for ALL road racing organizations in the U.S. If anyone from the CMRA races with any other road racing organization in the U.S. they better be prepared for that rule wherever they go (including the AMA). I sincerely doubt that the other organizations are going to change their rulebooks to accommodate the fact that someone raced with them and were unfamiliar with their rules.

We have an announcer at every one of our races. We give him a copy of the results when we post them and he announces that they have been posted. We do race at tracks where the P.A. systems are less than ideal, but we broadcast on an FM frequency that can be picked up on any FM radio. The FM frequency is listed on the back of the race schedule at every track, so even if the PA system isn't working very well, all announcements can be heard on an FM radio.

FYI, I have been involved in road racing and running road racing events all over the country for over 20 years. Most of our staff have been at it for quite a while and I have a feeling that our staff have a pretty good idea about what will be easier for the staff.

John Orchard
10-13-2005, 11:47 PM
Regardless of what we end up doing, I appreciate someone taking the time to think through a viable alternate solution to be considered. Steve's idea trims protest deadlines from 20 down to 4 - a more manageable number.

Rather than focus on what's 'easier' let's think about what's better for the club and the members.
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

John Orchard
10-13-2005, 11:47 PM
Regardless of what we end up doing, I appreciate someone taking the time to think through a viable alternate solution to be considered. Steve's idea trims protest deadlines from 20 down to 4 - a more manageable number.

Rather than focus on what's 'easier' let's think about what's better for the club and the members.
/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Troy Green
10-13-2005, 11:48 PM
Steve,

One potential problem with the above proposal is someone that is interested in those results may be on the track racing when the announcement is made... This would be a problem. And as mentioned above the PA systems at most tracks leave a lot to be desired.

Troy

Troy Green
10-13-2005, 11:48 PM
Steve,

One potential problem with the above proposal is someone that is interested in those results may be on the track racing when the announcement is made... This would be a problem. And as mentioned above the PA systems at most tracks leave a lot to be desired.

Troy

Steve Breen
10-14-2005, 11:07 AM
Good input, thanks Racers.

Another option presented (offline):

If you raced, for example, in race 3, you have until the start of race 8 to file your protest.

This would give you about an hour to get over to check your results and also give you a pretty simple way to know what the cutoff time is.

Since racers tend to frame their Sunday's around the eternal question "hey, what race is this?" it would be a less cloudy than the current "30 minutes after posting (whenever that event happens)". This would require no additional effort for non-racing Staff as well.

Hopefully a compromise can be reached that makes everyone happy. Good discussion, keep it coming, racers.

Steve Breen
10-14-2005, 11:07 AM
Good input, thanks Racers.

Another option presented (offline):

If you raced, for example, in race 3, you have until the start of race 8 to file your protest.

This would give you about an hour to get over to check your results and also give you a pretty simple way to know what the cutoff time is.

Since racers tend to frame their Sunday's around the eternal question "hey, what race is this?" it would be a less cloudy than the current "30 minutes after posting (whenever that event happens)". This would require no additional effort for non-racing Staff as well.

Hopefully a compromise can be reached that makes everyone happy. Good discussion, keep it coming, racers.

Norm McDonald
10-14-2005, 04:19 PM
Steve you and the riders need to know this could add alot of grief to the very difficult job. 60 min for a protest is not good. the last race of the day could keep scorers there for hours. You need to go work with the scorers for a day then you would know more of what you are talking about. Say the last race is over at 6pm at 6.55 a protest is filed new results are posted at 7.15 at 8.00 a new protest is filed that goes until 9pm. We checked every rule book we could find on line 30min is the max.We have Over 700 members and try to make CMRA racing rider friendly and have the best racing program possible. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-14-2005, 04:19 PM
Steve you and the riders need to know this could add alot of grief to the very difficult job. 60 min for a protest is not good. the last race of the day could keep scorers there for hours. You need to go work with the scorers for a day then you would know more of what you are talking about. Say the last race is over at 6pm at 6.55 a protest is filed new results are posted at 7.15 at 8.00 a new protest is filed that goes until 9pm. We checked every rule book we could find on line 30min is the max.We have Over 700 members and try to make CMRA racing rider friendly and have the best racing program possible. Norm

Steve Breen
10-14-2005, 05:04 PM
Norm,

Talk is cheap and we're just talking/discussion things, right? No harm of bantering ideas around, even those that might not be "what we've always done" or not "what everyone else does".

Whatever change is actually implemented (which include no change at all), racers get their voice heard.

To me, that seems important within the context of a "Questions for BOD" forum, no?

Steve Breen
10-14-2005, 05:04 PM
Norm,

Talk is cheap and we're just talking/discussion things, right? No harm of bantering ideas around, even those that might not be "what we've always done" or not "what everyone else does".

Whatever change is actually implemented (which include no change at all), racers get their voice heard.

To me, that seems important within the context of a "Questions for BOD" forum, no?

Norm McDonald
10-14-2005, 05:35 PM
Steve most of our officals have many years of experence in working races and some as racers and officals. Many of the ones wanting to change rules haven't even raced a full year, I'm not saying listen to all but when you make a change you have to be sure you haven't caused a bigger problem. Thanks and hope to see you at the meeting. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-14-2005, 05:35 PM
Steve most of our officals have many years of experence in working races and some as racers and officals. Many of the ones wanting to change rules haven't even raced a full year, I'm not saying listen to all but when you make a change you have to be sure you haven't caused a bigger problem. Thanks and hope to see you at the meeting. Norm

John Orchard
10-14-2005, 08:01 PM
Norm, I'm surprised to hear this response from you considering your participation in another thread that is entertaining the notion of adding an extra lap to our endurance race.

Adding random time to an endurance race and signaling racers that the end is near is most certainly more work and a bigger can of worms than what Steve suggested in this discussion.

Thanks again to Steve for being the only board member to step up and constructively answer a racer's request in this thread - regardless of the outcome.

John Orchard
10-14-2005, 08:01 PM
Norm, I'm surprised to hear this response from you considering your participation in another thread that is entertaining the notion of adding an extra lap to our endurance race.

Adding random time to an endurance race and signaling racers that the end is near is most certainly more work and a bigger can of worms than what Steve suggested in this discussion.

Thanks again to Steve for being the only board member to step up and constructively answer a racer's request in this thread - regardless of the outcome.

David Branyon
10-14-2005, 08:50 PM
In the vein of open discussion or brainstorming, I'll throw out that you probably don't need to extend the protest deadline after the last race. The difficulty of getting a protest in by the time limit is mostly tied to getting ready for the next race and since there is no "next race" after the last one, 30 minutes should be absolutely fine. I've got no idea how you'd sort out the logistical issues of having different protest periods for earlier races than for the last race, just thought I'd throw the idea out there. Please don't shoot. ;-)

And workers and staff, we appreciate the HECK out of y'all. You do a great job and work your tails off so we can play. I say we do everything we can to make no more work for the workers (unless we are going to fund more help) AND to make any worthwhile improvements for the racers. Hey, sometimes it happens. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

David Branyon
10-14-2005, 08:50 PM
In the vein of open discussion or brainstorming, I'll throw out that you probably don't need to extend the protest deadline after the last race. The difficulty of getting a protest in by the time limit is mostly tied to getting ready for the next race and since there is no "next race" after the last one, 30 minutes should be absolutely fine. I've got no idea how you'd sort out the logistical issues of having different protest periods for earlier races than for the last race, just thought I'd throw the idea out there. Please don't shoot. ;-)

And workers and staff, we appreciate the HECK out of y'all. You do a great job and work your tails off so we can play. I say we do everything we can to make no more work for the workers (unless we are going to fund more help) AND to make any worthwhile improvements for the racers. Hey, sometimes it happens. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

10-15-2005, 12:19 AM
The 30 minute rule is fine, it is the confusion that exists when the racer asks questions about the protest.

Maybe the best solution would be to file first and ask questions later /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The staff does have their hands full on race day and the current system is close, but like Breeno said, we are just talking. I am glad someone is listening.

Thanks Steve

10-15-2005, 12:19 AM
The 30 minute rule is fine, it is the confusion that exists when the racer asks questions about the protest.

Maybe the best solution would be to file first and ask questions later /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

The staff does have their hands full on race day and the current system is close, but like Breeno said, we are just talking. I am glad someone is listening.

Thanks Steve

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 09:31 AM
Randall It would help if all members would read the rule book from cover to cover. Thanks for your input. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 09:31 AM
Randall It would help if all members would read the rule book from cover to cover. Thanks for your input. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 09:53 AM
John If the checker flag was given to the leader each endurance it would add less the 12 minuets to the entire series. I don't see why this upsets people when we lost over 45 minuets in the last race do to red flags.We will race with what ever rules we keep, we have the best endurance series going and I know we'll keep it the best. Steve,myself and the rest of the BOD have tried to do what is best for the CMRA and it's members.Norm

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 09:53 AM
John If the checker flag was given to the leader each endurance it would add less the 12 minuets to the entire series. I don't see why this upsets people when we lost over 45 minuets in the last race do to red flags.We will race with what ever rules we keep, we have the best endurance series going and I know we'll keep it the best. Steve,myself and the rest of the BOD have tried to do what is best for the CMRA and it's members.Norm

10-15-2005, 10:16 AM
Norm,

I have read the rule book but sometimes racers still have questions. Especially ones that have raced for only a year. That's when we turn to the staff that has the experience, and look for answers to our questions. I know that you have been around this sport for quite a while and your family is still very much involved, I trust that you will look at every angle on this issue and others, and make the right decision.

Thanks Norm!

10-15-2005, 10:16 AM
Norm,

I have read the rule book but sometimes racers still have questions. Especially ones that have raced for only a year. That's when we turn to the staff that has the experience, and look for answers to our questions. I know that you have been around this sport for quite a while and your family is still very much involved, I trust that you will look at every angle on this issue and others, and make the right decision.

Thanks Norm!

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 11:12 AM
Walter,Nancy,Barry and the BOD have tried to answer questions riders have had. Sometimes when question appear on the message board they don't get answered very quick because sometimes we have to reserch it to answer it correctly. There are rules that can be inturped several ways in every rule book I've seen.In the old AMA rule book the last page read the referee can change the rule as he deams nessary.It was great racing under those rules they changed with each referee at each track.No I'm not living in the past. Just thought I'd throw that in. Norm

Norm McDonald
10-15-2005, 11:12 AM
Walter,Nancy,Barry and the BOD have tried to answer questions riders have had. Sometimes when question appear on the message board they don't get answered very quick because sometimes we have to reserch it to answer it correctly. There are rules that can be inturped several ways in every rule book I've seen.In the old AMA rule book the last page read the referee can change the rule as he deams nessary.It was great racing under those rules they changed with each referee at each track.No I'm not living in the past. Just thought I'd throw that in. Norm

Craig Montgomery
10-15-2005, 02:04 PM
I don't really care whether a white flag is thrown during an endurance race or not. Just as long as there is only ONE white flag given!

Now I really like the idea of a big race clock that not only the crew, but the riders can see. That would eliminate the need for so many people to be at pit wall AND throwing a white flag IMO. I'm game for whatever the BOD decides though.

Man there are a bunch of Idiots on this thread. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Craig Montgomery
10-15-2005, 02:04 PM
I don't really care whether a white flag is thrown during an endurance race or not. Just as long as there is only ONE white flag given!

Now I really like the idea of a big race clock that not only the crew, but the riders can see. That would eliminate the need for so many people to be at pit wall AND throwing a white flag IMO. I'm game for whatever the BOD decides though.

Man there are a bunch of Idiots on this thread. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif