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Nancy Selleck
11-04-2005, 02:55 PM
For Immediate Release
November 4, 2005
Contact: Bill Syfan, Proforma - 817-244-8552

LONE STAR TRACK DAYS NAMED EXCLUSIVE PROVIDER OF 2006 CMRA NEW RACER SCHOOL

The Central Motorcycle Roadracing Association is pleased to announce an exclusive agreement with Lone Star Track Days to provide the CMRA New Racer School curriculum and instruction for the 2006 season. Lone Star Track Days is a regional track day program that has been a provider of the CMRA New Racer School curriculum for the last three years, bringing several hundred new riders to the CMRA while adding financial benefit to the club. All school fees collected by LSTD are donated to the CMRA.

In seasons past, the CMRA New Racer School was also offered on Saturdays during busy CMRA race weekends, with riders getting minimal track time and classroom instruction. The LSTD program greatly increases the amount of time dedicated to the prospective racer and provides the CMRA with better prepared new racers entering the club racing arena.

All LSTD instructors teaching the CMRA New Racer School are CMRA Expert licensed riders and are certified by the CMRA each year. New Racer School students with LSTD get six to seven 20-minute track sessions with classroom sessions in between, and must pass a written test and complete all of the on-track activity, including a mock start and race, to receive their Certificate of Completion. The rider may then apply for their CMRA Provisional Novice racing license.

The CMRA New Racer School is taught at all LSTD events. In addition, LSTD will be hosting Friday track days before each 2006 CMRA race weekend, except for the Hallett Motor Racing Circuit rounds. Below is the 2006 LSTD schedule.

2006 Lone Star Track Days Schedule

2/10 No Problem Raceway, Belle Rose, LA *

2/20 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX

3/6 MotorSport Ranch, Cresson, TX

3/17 Oak Hill Raceway, Henderson, TX*

4/21 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX*

5/1 MotorSport Ranch, Cresson, TX

5/22 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX

6/9 MotorSport Ranch, Cresson, TX*

6/26 MotorSport Ranch, Houston, TX

7/17 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX

8/18 MotorSport Ranch, Cresson, TX*

8/28 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX

9/11 MotorSport Ranch, Houston, TX

9/25 MotorSport Ranch, Cresson, TX

10/6 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX*

10/30 Texas World Speedway, College Station, TX

*These events held the day before CMRA race weekends.

Additional MSR Houston dates pending.

For more information on the CMRA, call 817-377-1599 or visit www.cmraracing.com. (http://www.cmraracing.com.)

For more information on LSTD, call 713-253-2966 or visit www.lonestartrackdays.com. (http://www.lonestartrackdays.com.)

SAM ROMEO
11-04-2005, 03:27 PM
Nancy
Was this voted on by the BOD and why was Ride Smart excluded?

Nancy Selleck
11-04-2005, 03:42 PM
Yes, this was voted on by the Board. These things are decided because they are voted on by the Board of Directors.

The decision was made because it became clear that after a year of more than one organization teaching the school it was in the best interest of the CMRA to simplify logistics and endorse just one.

We gave it a try and it didn't work out.

David Branyon
11-06-2005, 08:41 AM
Hey, there's some time available there--no more Rider's school nor mock race on Saturday. So does this mean Classic and F-CMRA classes are back? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Sorry, can't help myself but stir the pot.

Jack Giesecke
11-06-2005, 06:57 PM
Will the TMGP school still count to a CMRA license? If not, the mini guys will have no way to qualify for a CMRA license cause you can't ride a mini at LSTD track days. Don't leave the kids out! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Jack Giesecke
11-06-2005, 07:07 PM
I'll add, there's a couple of guys I know that are getting minis and want to run both clubs, if they can get licensed for CMRA.

Jason Keene
11-07-2005, 08:30 AM
I've talked to Wade and they are going to work something out.

Steve McNamara
11-07-2005, 03:42 PM
We will be able to handle the mini class licensing at "most" events and all the specifics should be worked out by the banquet.
Gotta be ready for that open meeting. :-)

Jack Giesecke
11-07-2005, 05:24 PM
I hadn't thought about the fact that TMGP is another race organization and CMRA recognizes other organizations schools. Further explanation on the HSN board, but thanks for clearing that up. Just don't wanna see mini guys and especially the kids forgotten about. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Nancy Selleck
11-07-2005, 05:56 PM
Jack, I haven't seen the curriculum used for the TMGP riders school. Do you happen to know what it is and how it works? Can you get a copy so I can look it over?

Jack Giesecke
11-07-2005, 07:05 PM
I can e-m either John Casley or Denny Spears to get it to you. I was under the impression that Norm or someone had come checked out the TMGP school last year and CMRA had deemed it appropriate for CMRA recognition. But, if we need to get you the lesson plans or something, not a problem. I'll e-m John and Denny about it. Well, I'll have to call Denny cause he's old and computer illiterate, though he has gotten on the TMGP board lately.

Notice, I didn't call him "slow". He is definitely not "slow", well, on the track anyway. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Brad Thomas
11-08-2005, 11:24 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Steve McNamara:
Gotta be ready for that open meeting. :-) </div></div>OOhhhhh yea, you better get ready! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

This is great news, LSTD will continue to be fertile ground for future CMRA members.

I have no affiliation with LSTD other than being a customer.
I attended the open meeting last year and was openly critical of LSTD (Macman in particular) for scheduling Friday track days before selected events during the 2005 season. What I learned during the meeting, that many may not know, was LSTD had at that time raised over $16,000 for the club. They basically donate their time and energy to organize and run a CMRA approved license school. Yes they charge the students for track time but they give all of the license school money to the club.

Another topic was discussed on the message board and at the open meeting last year about other organizations being approved as license school providers. IMO others were granted the opportunity to offer license schools of their own but none produced like LSTD. And even if others were not given the opportunity, this is good business for the CMRA and I applaud the BOD for this decision.

This will give new riders way more track time than the CMRA could give them during a race day and Iím confident our CMRA licensed racers who teach the students will do an excellent job getting them ready.

Kudos to LSTD and the CMRA BOD, great job!

David Milner
11-08-2005, 08:00 PM
My only problems are that: a) cost to license just tripled. b) opportunities for licensing dropped.

I've already prepped management that I will be taking off a lot of time next year and even given them the schedule (wife included). I like to take the friday off before a race so that I can get pit space held and not taken by all the street riders. if there were some way that LSTD could keep the street riders from taking pit areas, that would be great, but that's only my suggestion.

with the ruling, I now have to take an extra day off from work (I'm the only support for a 45+ network) to take the class at triple the cost as it was this year.

Ok, so take it on a monday you say. There again, I'm relegated to taking time off to go to a class at 3 times the cost to get my yellow.

If these are the rules, then these are the rules. I'll get my yellow when I get my yellow.

I very much respect all the LSTD people, let's not go there.

I've disagreed with some of their decisions on trackdays, here again, let's not go there.

I think that this decision has an overall positive impact on the riders and the organization.

I just have my view.

Michael Patterson
11-09-2005, 12:10 AM
So I need some clearing up on this. Do I understand this right??

No more school on Saturday at the races??? The only way we can get our Yellow shirt is through LSTD???

Steve McNamara
11-09-2005, 07:40 AM
Michael,

That is correct.

David,

We would love for our Friday practice days to be "racers only" but participation has never been strong enough to sell out an event.
IMHO, no one should be allowed to step off the street and get into a racing environment for the first time with only 15-20 minutes of on track experience. The licensing school fee remains the same, the only difference is the track day cost.
I can assure everyone the additional track time, more inclusive curriculumn, and mock race are worth the extra money. Better prepared yellow shirt riders is what this is all about while keeping licensing school revenue in the CMRA and freeing up the weekend schedule.

Joseph Browning
11-09-2005, 08:36 AM
I was going to pitch a fit at the open meeting about this- but with BT on board it must be good. So by the power vested in BT I now pronounce that I will have one less thing to ***** about! But we'll be missing the open meeting, sorta supposed to have a kid that day. BT I'll count on you to keep the BoD on their toes. :-)

ChuckMcCoy
11-09-2005, 09:20 AM
I wondered if the issue of racers being excluded from fri. track days would be raised. There are some important issues here.

LSTD has a good business; right place, right time, well run, all that... It may seem to us CMRA people that there are "a lot" of racers, but there are not. There are ten of thousands of street riders and more and more of them are doing track days.

The recent LSTD on the Friday before TWS was billed as a racers only day, but that turned out to be not the case.

1. If you don't sign up quickly after they "open", you don't get a space. This is good for LSTD, but bad for a club racer that may or may not have his/her equipment ready for Friday and probably won't know the answer to that question untill midnight of Thursday. :-(

2. Consider the case where a LSTD Fri. has 50% CMRA racers and 50% trackday riders. How is the track time divided? A,B,C groups? Where does that leave our *safety related* LW, YellowPlate, WhitePlate grouping? What about the minis?

3. Friday pit setup - IIRC, TWS is the only track where there are "issues" with just showing up at whatever time you can make it and set up a pit. This is going to completely change that situation, for the worse.

4. At MSR and HRC there is (was) often "promoter pratice" where you could just show up, pay and ride.

5. At OHR there was a Fri. open pratice, which was fairly lightly attended. Clearly a big chunk of extra work for our track staff and perhaps not break-even financially. Nevertheless, I thought a good idea and the standard pratice fee makes sense to me. I hope the club will do that again; or as a minimum assure that CMRA racers are *always* able to show up, pay, tech, ride!

There are probably other items that could/should be brought into this discussion, and I bet were discussed by BOD. Clearly, the CMRA benefits from the activities of LSTD. It is also true that LSTD benefits from CMRA activities. I hope that these Friday before race days are arranged so that the primary beneficaries are CMRA racers.

Sonny
11-09-2005, 10:54 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Chuck McCoy:

1. If you don't sign up quickly after they "open", you don't get a space. This is good for LSTD, but bad for a club racer that may or may not have his/her equipment ready for Friday and probably won't know the answer to that question untill midnight of Thursday. :-(
</div></div>Thanks for bringing this up, Chuck. It would indeed be a benefit if CMRA racers were permitted to register after the signup-rush. Work schedules for some of us don't let us know if we'll be free to attend far in advance. An alternative would be to permit CMRA racers to transfer their registration to another track day without restrictive cut-off times/limits. Given that CMRA has awarded LSTD "exclusive provider" status (and the associated financial benefit), would it be possible for LSTD to offer CMRA racers some benefits like this?

Norm McDonald
11-09-2005, 11:11 AM
Registration will be open to CMRA members first you will have time to get in. Steve will post just how this will work.

Tom Anderson
11-09-2005, 02:09 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Chuck McCoy:

The recent LSTD on the Friday before TWS was billed as a racers only day, but that turned out to be not the case. </div></div>IIRC, there were not enough racers signed up to warrant a "racer only" track day. I wouldn't expect LSTD to go out and lose money on an event hoping that racers show up on the day of the event.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Originally posted by Chuck McCoy:
I hope the club will do that again; or as a minimum assure that CMRA racers are *always* able to show up, pay, tech, ride! </div></div>I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want to go out with a HUGE group of riders for a track day, no matter what the skill level is. Responsible racers will sign up and get in on the track day if they want it, on time, IMHO. If you open something for a limited number of riders, then say any racer can come in, pay/tech/ride, then you open the day for obscene numbers of riders in each session.

This change sounds like an excellent idea in the interest of rider safety (more track time for new racers prior to actual racing), the CMRA benefits from having hassles with staffing and running a program, it opens up hour(s) in our racing day schedule, and LSTD gets more tracks to work track days at- which benefits everyone.

To another freely tossed statement, I don't think this is going to line anyone's pockets. Let's face it, with rare few exceptions, LSTD (and other track day organizations) regularly sell out all of their events several days prior to the deadlines. It isn't like this is going to get them more money or save their business from assured failure. I'm sure LSTD (and other track day organizations) will continue to thrive despite what or who they are affiliated with.

My observation is that LSTD is nothing but benevolent in this venture, and have the truely best interest of our Club and racer safety at heart.

Steve McNamara
11-09-2005, 04:22 PM
Sonny,

The only way we can afford to donate this much time and effort to the club is by selling out Track Days.
This may not sound "politically" correct but LSTD has to make a profit or we would go out of business.
Our goal is to hold Racer Only events on the Fridays in 2006 and if things work out as hoped/planned, attendance for these events will solve most the problems you discussed.

David Branyon
11-09-2005, 07:36 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Sonny Thandassery:
<snip> It would indeed be a benefit if CMRA racers were permitted to register after the signup-rush. <snip> An alternative would be to permit CMRA racers to transfer their registration to another track day without restrictive cut-off times/limits. </div></div>I'm not sure about penalties, I think LSTD is pretty generous about allowing you to transfer your sign-up to a subsequent track day if you are not able to make it for some reason. Also, since their track days typically sell out with residual demand, it is usually NO PROBLEM to sell a track day even a day or two ahead of it (in the case that you signed up and then can't make it). I've done it myself, with a post on this here mboard the day before the trackday.

So, I'd say go ahead and sign up way ahead of time (when it opens), and if you can't make it, you should easily be able to get out of it.

STEVE,
Can you post as to LSTD's stance on dropping a track day X days before it occurs and being able to exchange to a later track day (including minimum value of X)?

I am another not affiliated with LSTD, but I see some great work out of those guys, with a definite net benefit to CMRA when it's all balanced out. Overall, this looks like a very good move to me.

As to concern over the increased cost to get to the yellow shirt (now the cost is rider's school cost plus a track day): for a new racer, a track day is worth much more than a race weekend, IMHO. So, if this is the problem, skip the first race weekend and go to the LSTD thing and get your license instead. Then start at the 2nd race weekend and you'll have a bit more track time on your side.

David Milner
11-09-2005, 08:23 PM
Steve

I fully understand the reason for the decision and support it fully. The issues that I have are mine, and not the general public. You guys do a great job and have done a HELL of a lot to support the CMRA and bring new riders into the club. I've never said anything to the contrary. As I stated, I think this will be a positive impact on both the riders and the club as a whole.

David

if you spend $175 on getting your license vs. $50, does it matter when the expense occurs? The cost is still 3x what it was last season. Breaking it up and spreading the expense over 2 periods does nothing more than make your prepaids go down in the 2nd period. You assume that all of us were/are going to sprint. I understand your point of spending the race fees from the first weekend on a school and yellow, there by offsetting what would be a cost incurred.

The fact of the matter remains that instead of the $50 last year cost, it is now $175 plus additional time off.

so, now that we've worked out accounting principles and cost structures.

I defer to my prior posts that these are my views and mine alone.

I repeat yet again, that I think this decision and direction will be a benefit to both the riders and the organization.

edit:

Guys, understand, I'm not questioning, nor bucking, the decision of the BOD in implementing this. I think it's a great idea.

My issue is with cost, not benefit.

If we don't agree, then we don't agree, there's nothing wrong with that.

David

David Branyon
11-09-2005, 09:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by David Milner:
if you spend $175 on getting your license vs. $50, does it matter when the expense occurs? The cost is still 3x what it was last season.
</div></div>Yeah, I think we're on the same page. It doesn't matter when, but it is possible to trade one cost in February (racing) for another (trackday/school), but you said that below.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You assume that all of us were/are going to sprint. I understand your point of spending the race fees from the first weekend on a school and yellow, there by offsetting what would be a cost incurred.
</div></div>Well, I assume all of us were/are going to race , either sprint or endurance, so the offsetting thing seems to work. Is that a bad assumption for people getting a racing license? Still, if you're dead set on a full racing season, or have already had all the track days you'd care for, then it's just flat out more money--you're right.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If we don't agree, then we don't agree, there's nothing wrong with that.

David </div></div>Righto. Hey, no problem with differing opinions or anything. Look forward to seeing you out there next year!

All that said, I need to know how this is going to work out for mini riders, as my son will be one next year. And David, I may incur the extra cost for him with no offset or payback, so I feel your pain. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

David Hirsch
11-09-2005, 09:06 PM
Caveat:
I have thought about this quite a bit. That does not mean I managed to consider everything (and I probably did not).

Everyone here knows I have no affiliation with LSTD and they have even annoyed me in the past /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Track days are growing by leaps and bounds in the US. The track days expose the everyday street rider to the track and the comradery that comes with it.

If we build it they will come.

By having the open practice and the track days together but with seperate sessions they will see how it should be done and want to move up, possibly to the club. If they do not start racing they may turn into spectators and or corner workers. I think this will make the club stronger as well as give added practice time to club members who desire it. As to having one organization hold the schools I know the board did not make the decision lightly.

David Milner
11-09-2005, 09:16 PM
David,

Mini's aren't in the LSTD schedule as of yet (I'm sure they are working on that)

and I plan on racing big bike endurance to give me the experience that I need if I should decide to race F40. Now, how do I convert the big bike endurance fees from OHR into your scheme?

As I said, I don't have a problem with the benefit that this SHOULD/WILL bring to the club. I only have an issue with the cost and time off.

Michael Patterson
11-10-2005, 12:11 AM
OK I guess I am going to stir the pot a little. Probably get on someoneís **** list umm I mean short list. I am in favor of a better learning environment for the new racers, and I think in whole this is a good idea.

The only problems I have with this is the EXCUSIVITY of only 1 business being able to provide this service. Thus making this a monopoly. And furthermore the club not providing this service at all (at the very least the club should offer select school dates). It looks like to me that there is something deeper that is not known to the general members. What we have here is 2 businesses that are in bed together. What about Kevin Schwantz School, Keith Code, Freddie Spencer, Ride Smart, and many that I have missed. Do those, some world champions, not have a fair chance at instructing new riders how to compete and having the CMRA honor their credentials and certificates like in the past?

How would you like it if I somehow swung a deal to be the only provider of numbers and riders could not race unless you ran Approved TGD numbers? From a business standpoint it would be awesome to have guaranteed income, but from a consumer standpoint it would seem like a forced decision. And that another company could not compete.

In closing in my opinion the club should remain independent from other businesses not recommending one over the other, only providing a list of where the services are available.

Nancy Selleck
11-10-2005, 06:54 AM
Read the rulebook.

The CMRA accepts school certificates from other approved schools such as Kevin Schwantz, Team Hammer Advanced Riding School, the STAR School, etc, but you're required to take the CMRA written test before you can apply for your license.

The CMRA no longer has the time in the schedule to teach the school. And as mentioned previously in this thread, students weren't receiving the amount of time in the class and on the track that they really needed.

We tried having more than one organization teach the CMRA riding school this past year...and it didn't work out. The club is not required to allow everyone and anyone to provide a service...we have the right to pick and choose and decide which provider is the best for our needs. The club has an obligation to insure that our new racers receive the best instruction that we can provide.

That is what we've done.

Michael Patterson
11-10-2005, 08:56 AM
I have read the rulebook.

That is the reason I asked the question in my 1st post on this thread, was to understand if I had a choice of going to any other schools. When I got the response of only LSTD was providing the school then I thought the rulebook had changed excluding all other schools.

Nancy Thank You for clearing things up.

Nancy Selleck
11-10-2005, 09:23 AM
Michael, if that's true, you're only one of a very few who have! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

We don't accept EVERY school out there, but quite a few.

SAM ROMEO
11-10-2005, 01:11 PM
I sort of started this snowball going downhill when I asked Nancy if the BOD had approved the LSTD group being the only outside vendor teaching the new riders. I asked this question after looking at the posted minutes of the last board meeting and not seeing where it was actually voted on, just discussed. Before I opened my big mouth again I called and emailed a few in the know and was advised that brand R had dropped the ball. Enough said untill I see now that the only way a new CMRA racer can get a license is thru and indepentent for profit company. That doesn't feel right. I'm not suggesting that LSTD hasn't done a fine job - we all know they have. The club should still have the primary responsibility of teaching new riders. If the new guys prefer to get their license at an LSTD trackday, then so be it. It should be their choise just like it's the clubs responsibility to provide initial rider training.
I think the BOD should reconsider this move.

Jason Keene
11-10-2005, 02:06 PM
Sam,

I believe you are missing the point... This particular company is NOT MAKING A PROFIT OFF OF THIS SERVICE. They are in the business of providing track days, so yes that is something they benefit from... The license school is not something they profit from. It also allows the individual the opportunity to get more track time... When the class was taught on Saturday at the races they got 2/15 - 20 minute sessions...

I personally feel that people who want to race should take track days for A COUPLE OF YEARS.

Every rider has the opportunity to go to a STAR SCHOOL or a CODE or Schwantz School or any other accredited school for that matter...

As much as I like BRAND R and the idividuals in it... They are not an accredited school...


I only see the BOD trying to dedicate more time to the clubs overall interest of racing and allowing an established and well structured outfit to offer a service...

Maybe you should start a school and hire Miguel Duhamel to teach it... Then get him certified and register your school as a credited learning facility and offer the licensing service for FREE. Aside from the standard registration fees and charges needed to pay the CMRA of course.

I believe that is what the EXPENSIVE Courses have done as far as the certification and registration aspect to gain national recognition.

I simply see LSTD as a venue that offers lot's of track time and the opportunity to gain an education as well as a license, if I'm so interested, for a third of the cost of the more prestigious and EXPENSIVE schools...

Brad Thomas
11-10-2005, 03:18 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jason Keene #142:
I simply see LSTD as a venue that offers lot's of track time and the opportunity to gain an education as well as a license, if I'm so interested, for a third of the cost of the more prestigious and EXPENSIVE schools... </div></div>Good points Jason. If anyone wants to compare costs to some of the other track days listed LSTD is a bargain.

Some have posted the CMRA rider school costs $50, our website says $75.

Cost of the LSTD Friday track day is:
MSR $140
TWS $160

LSTD rider school cost is $30 and it's optional.

LSTD CMRA license school is $50, so it's actually cheaper than what we (CMRA) charge $75.

Total charge with license school:
MSR $190
TWS $210

Total charge with license school and rider school:
MSR $220
TWS $240

Yes the whole package costs more than it would at a CMRA event, but the new CMRA racer will get a whole lot more. More track time, more feedback from more instructors. LSTD has a ton of instructors. They go out with the various groups leading and following different riders. Most of the time after a track session an instructor will have a one on one conversation with at least one rider. We (CMRA) have never been able to spend that much time with new riders nor have we had the time to have one on one conversations with them in order to offer advice or give them any feedback.

So, basically our new riders will be paying more money to get licensed and they will also be receiving more instruction and more track time. Since Iíve been around the club we have never had a problem attracting new members and I believe this decision will not have a significant impact on new membership. Our bigger problem is retaining members and bringing new riders in under these circumstances may be more encouraging and could possibly help keep them around a bit longer.

LSTD has been and continues to be a launching pad for new CMRA members. Eliminating the rider school from our race day schedule will benefit all CMRA members and we might be able to finish a few race days before 7:30 in the evening. If there are any red flags during practice we may have enough time in the schedule to actually have full length practice sessions.

IMO this decision is a win/win for the new and current CMRA members.

Desert-Rats.net #2

SAM ROMEO
11-10-2005, 05:16 PM
Jason
You're missing my point. LSTD is a well run and I hope very profitable outfit. I'm simply stating that the CMRA has a responsibiliy to provide the training to a new rider if he wants it, not push it off on a private enterprise no matter how well run and organized they are. I feel it should be the new riders choise who is responsible for his initial training.
I'm also concerned about the clubs liability in the instance where a new rider wearing a yellow shirt gets hurt in a crash. Since the club forced the rider to go to someone else for basic training, are we more or less liable? I don't know...

Steve McNamara
11-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Sam,

Let's see.
We put you in a classroom for 2 hours then we let you ride in "Riders School" practice for 20 minutes. You don't crash, then your a provisional novice racer.

Next we let you get on the race track in an endurance race with Logan Young, Shannon Ball, Craig Montgomery along with other "fast" guys and we had "liability issues".

Now, new plan?
Third party licensing with 2 hours school and a much improved riders school curriculumn.
6-7/ 20 minute on track sessions, and a mock race to let them roll off the grid into their first "real taste of racing".

Which sounds less likely for issues?
There will always be liability in our sport but our program offers MORE FOR THE RACER.
Other cool stuff for 2006 is the reinstatement of the Prov Nov Race and hopefully a change in our Prov Nov policy for Big Bike Endurance.

Jason hit the nail on the head pretty well in saying more riders interested in racing should do more track days before they race.
All I can say is I want to have the safest races possible and this program is a good way to have better prepared riders.
I see your point Sam about a for profit company offering licensing. All companies currently wanting to stay in business need to make a profit.
Even the CMRA!!!!!!

David Milner
11-10-2005, 06:37 PM
Well, don't that just make ya want to spank the monkey, stay home and never race.

Just a few questions Sam, and then I'll be done (until the next time of course /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif )

Don't you, as a racer sign a waiver during your registration process?

Aren't all the instructors for the school expert riders in the CMRA?

Aren't all the instructors sanctioned and certified by the CMRA?

You agree this is a good move, right?

So what's the problem?

Edit to ask, what is the difference, besides it being LSTD and the track fee, from being a CMRA hosted event?

SAM ROMEO
11-11-2005, 03:12 PM
Steve
I beleive and agree with everything you said. My only concern is that the club should give prospective new riders the choise between your well run efficient organization and the clubs
own cheaper (because they only pay the school fees and not the track day fee) school.
David
We might sign a waiver, but that doesn't stop a lawyer from coming after us if he gets a chance, therefore the prudent thing is to always play it as safe as possible. I wouldn't think that farming out all rider training to another group
is playing it safe.
I hope the BOD took this into consideration when they voted on this

Brad Thomas
11-11-2005, 04:41 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nancy Selleck:
Read the rulebook.

The CMRA accepts school certificates from other approved schools such as Kevin Schwantz, Team Hammer Advanced Riding School, the STAR School, etc, but you're required to take the CMRA written test before you can apply for your license.

The CMRA no longer has the time in the schedule to teach the school. And as mentioned previously in this thread, students weren't receiving the amount of time in the class and on the track that they really needed.</div></div>So, a new rider interested in becoming a licensed CMRA racer does have a choice; take any one of the approved track day schools you want. The CMRA accepts school certificates, but you will have to take a test to get your license.

The whole point here is the club does not have a recruiting issue; there are plenty of new riders. If we were having trouble getting new riders then this move would not be necessary. It has become necessary because of our club's growth and success. This is a good policy because it serves the needs of all current and future club members.
Current club members and staff will benefit from a less crowded schedule. Walter will have a bit more flexibility with the schedule if problems (red flags during practice) arise during a race day. And new riders will get more track time before they jump on the track to race.

I really don't follow your logic Sam; you are suggesting that because we won't offer a license school we are somehow opening up our club to more liability. I'm sure you already realize that if a law suit of any kind were to be initiated against the club that would probably be the end.
I would think allowing them to get more track time than we could ever offer would be a positive step to reduce liability, not increase it.

David Milner
11-11-2005, 09:28 PM
JEESUS CHRIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right sam, you are totally right, the BOD didn't think of ANYTHING other than the long standing desire to PISS in your corn flakes.

They didn't think of rider safety, both new and existing.

They didn't think about the long term effect that this decision would have on the club.

They didn't think about how people would react to the decision.

They didn't think about all the discussions all year long about prov novs and their tendency to have shaky lines.

They didn't think about how those shaky lines were causing a hazard to other riders

they didn't think that maybe there was a better way

they didn't think that maybe limiting the instruction to a few would also provide consistency in the teaching

they didn't think about any of this, only about making you look bad and having you whine on the board

This was their sole intention and goal and it would seem they have succeeded to that end.

So, Sam, you going for your yellow next season? I am, and I think I mentioned something about the increased cost. But I think I also mentioned something about cost/benefit and that the benefit in this decision out weighted the cost and that I supported it.

Oh, did I mention I'm going for my yellow next season and have to pay the increased cost, and can't race big bike until I shed the yellow, which was all I was wanting to race, and also that I have to sprint for 2 weekends to shed my yellow which I wasn't wanting to do?

Grab your shoulders and yank bubba, it's not all about you.

There are a few of us with far more issues with these decisions than you have.

If we're good to go, then you should be too.

vduc
11-12-2005, 02:10 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by David Milner:
...You're right sam, you are totally right, the BOD didn't think of ANYTHING other than the long standing desire to PISS in your corn flakes.
</div></div>:) /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Really don't understand what the big deal is about let LSTD being the "exclusive" provider? They're not, you can get it elsewhere, if you want to pay a bunch more. I can understand it'll cost you more $ (than the CMRA class), and another day off from work. I think we all agree there isn't anyone out there new to racing that wouldn't benefit from the additional track time.

Let's see less instruction + less track time = less liability, OK! Sounds to me like the CMRA is doing the right thing. Not as sure on the yellow shirt ban from big bike endurance since endurance already has a huge speed difference build in to it. Personally if I was new to racing I would keep away from that situation and sprint a few times in races with people/bikes closer to my speed.

Racer only track day that's not LSTD responsibility, it's ours as racers signing up. No affiliation with LSTD, my only request would be that LSTD allow all tire vendors if they are locking up most of the Friday's before race weekends.


Vito
Just happy to get some track time...

Jason Keene
11-12-2005, 06:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by David Milner:

Don't you, as a racer sign a waiver during your registration process?

</div></div>Sam doesn't race... He just, well, keep reading you'll see...

SAM ROMEO
11-12-2005, 11:18 AM
This is getting amusing! You can always disagree with me and debate using logic, but I never will understand how I always seem to accidently step on something that some of you may have hanging out??
Why not debate with logic instead of throwing rocks. How would several of you feel if a larger man like me hammered on your head when I got you in my sights just because I didn't agree with you - that wouldn't settle anything. Probably just make you more determined to best me. If I insulted anyone, it definitely wasn't my intention.

Ty Howard
11-12-2005, 06:55 PM
Well, I think its great. Maybe I will get more than six laps of practice before we race. Maybe we can have a debate about getting some practice on Saturday.

Walter Walker
11-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Debate over. There WILL be more Saturday sprint practice. Hows that for service... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Jeff Grant
11-13-2005, 01:29 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Walter Walker:
Debate over. There WILL be more Saturday sprint practice. Hows that for service... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif </div></div>d0000d... that rocked. My turn.

(*clearing throat*)

Sure would be great to have the RRC back.

Juuuuuuuuuuust messin' with ya Walter! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Well... I'm not but ya know. Nevermind. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

11-13-2005, 09:49 AM
I don't see the big problem, LSTD does a great job and you can still go elsewhere if you want! If LSTD is going to offer more track time for new racers, then it has to be good! The club system was too easy and anyone could get a license.

I know that the club wants new riders and there is no shortage, if everyone is concerned about lawsuits and safety, why do we make it so easy to get a license? It really doesn't matter who teaches the license class, you answer some questions, stay upright for a few laps, and you are in!

If there is concern over riders that are not "ready to race" after one track day license school, let's set some type of time requirement at each track. I am curious, has anyone ever been turned away from getting their license because they were not ready to race? If we are truly concerned about rider safety then this makes sense. Crowded novice grids + super slow riders with pour riding skills= danger!

At the rate this club is growing, something like this will have to be considered. You can't have grids with 75 riders can you?

2SlowButTryin
11-13-2005, 03:10 PM
wow... I'll speak up just because I recently came through both LSTD AND CMRA training. I think this is a GREAT move... At the LSTD event I recieved off track instructions, technique advice, and line selection. I also recieved on track coaching, and most importantly ALOT of track time. I don't want to knock CMRA but thier Saterday schedule just wouldn't let me get the one on one LSTD offered.
We just have to recognize our own limitations and find someone capable of doing what we can't.
It's called outsourcing..
That's what the BOD did and applaud them!!

CMRA school- focus on flags, communication, and ettiquette... + 14 laps = LETS SPRINT!!!

CRAZY!!!!

LSTD school- focused on all the above, + brake markers, sight markers, line selection, late apex, body position, throttle drills, one on one coaching ON TRACK... + 40-50 laps = lets go do more practice laps on SAT and SUN before the Sprint race.

Which one of these is gonna protect the new rider from themself more? protect the fast guys that are GONNA (not might) Lap this guy his first race..?

Track time = safety

Again, I love my CMRA family but we just haven't been able to provide the coaching needed. There is no way we could offer one on one ON TRACK during a race weekend... it's overload. If someone is worried about a price increase of $100-200... it's just not there...
If your a rookie lookin' to race, you need to be doing every trackday you can get too... So the $140 cost is already there.. Just add the $50 or whatever for the liscence and go...

I still disagree on the big bike endurance but the training is RIGHT ON! GO BOD!!!!
Thanx LSTD!!!

Jeff Grant
11-13-2005, 06:45 PM
Thanks Russell. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by randall kienast:
If there is concern over riders that are not "ready to race" after one track day license school, let's set some type of time requirement at each track.</div></div>Absolutely. This is something that we take into consideration and address as well. Even on our sign-up page, underneath the CMRA License option, we state to customers that:

A. We're glad you are at the track.
B. We're glad you want to go racing.
C. You need to do get some track time under your belt before the flag drops.

Steve, Wade and myself have all had countless conversations with people on the phone, or via e-mail, about this... letting them know that the track experience is indeed way cool, but also a whole new world. Furthermore, just because they ride a 1000 and have street cred from their crew of buddies back in their stomping grounds does not mean that they should rush to the green flag like Michael Moore to a pallet of Twinkies.

Get some seat time under your belt... take it all in... then make the decision to go race. That's what we tell 'em.

Then, if it looks like they're gonna be too fast, crush their blooming confidence with name calling while totally reversing all of their suspension settings. :p

Steve Breen
11-13-2005, 08:02 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Vito Dionisio:
my only request would be that LSTD allow all tire vendors if they are locking up most of the Friday's before race weekends.
</div></div>Vito,

All vendors will be granted access to the Friday LSTD/CMRA events next season. Hope this clears this up.

Brad Thomas
11-14-2005, 11:43 AM
Awesome!

Wow, how's that for thinking things through. You guys really did put some thought into this. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

2SlowButTryin
11-14-2005, 05:28 PM
Quote- Jeff Grant
Then, if it looks like they're gonna be too fast, crush their blooming confidence with name calling while totally reversing all of their suspension settings.


NICE!!! .... stay away from my bike! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

I'll vouche for his comments about street cred... It don't fly at the track... I was that guy my crew chased through the hills... Then I was introduced to the race track... WOW! I refuse to ride on the street like that anymore cause the pack usually uses the front man for a reference point... If I tried an aggressive brake marker with a late apex I"D GET PLOWED OVER! Not to mention I'd feel bad for all the guys laying in someone's front yard.... Street riding is like riding a go cart... Racing is like running INDY! Same concept... Much different scale!

vduc
11-14-2005, 07:30 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Steve Breen:
[QUOTE]All vendors will be granted access to the Friday LSTD/CMRA events next season. Hope this clears this up. </div></div>I'll second that Awesome! Thanks, I'll be trying to make more Friday trackday/practices in 2006. I know I can use the practice...

Vito