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Keith Hertell
06-11-2003, 11:00 AM
http://www.speedtv.com/features/94/

Please vote at Speed TV on the best drivers (and riders)in the world. I think MotoGP has only 5% or so. Guess who's winning?

m novak
06-11-2003, 11:20 AM
Each discipline has it's own shining merit, but they are all too different to determine who the best of the best is.

Rossi is unreal on a bike...average in a rally car
Andretti is wicked fast in a car...not so quick on a bike

I guess the most talented driver would be the one who has the guy who can do well regardless of what he is driving/riding. We would need more personal info to figure that one out.

I voted for F1

Keith Hertell
06-11-2003, 01:40 PM
I'm assuming that Speed wants to know in a round about way what type of programmming is most popular.

So MARK!!! You seemed to have screwed the M/C race lovers.

Say goodbye to 2 wheel tuesdays!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

David Branyon
06-11-2003, 02:52 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mark Novak:
<snip>
Rossi is unreal on a bike...average in a rally car
Andretti is wicked fast in a car...not so quick on a bike

I guess the most talented driver would be the one who has the guy who can do well regardless of what he is driving/riding. We would need more personal info to figure that one out.
</div></div>Yeah, but the voting wasn't based on who is the best driver but which series has the best drivers. I interpret that as which series' driving requires the most skill and my feeling is motorcycle road racing. Of course, I could be biased. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Jeff Grant
06-11-2003, 03:08 PM
I can't believe NASCAR leads F1 racing... gimme a frickin' break. Advertising dollars at work here for sure. :rolleyes:

"Quick Jed... turn left! Wait a sec... ok, turn left again! Hang on... ok, gimme a left! Two-Four-Six-Eight... what's that spell!? No wait a sec, nevermind... quick, LEFT."

marcus mcbain
06-11-2003, 03:40 PM
Maybe I am the only one that noticed, but Nascar get's a lot of votes because it is real freakin' popular.

From a "I don't know much about this sport" fans perspective, Nascar is easy to understand and grasp. (Guess it helps when there always left hand turns, and nicely colored cars /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ).

As a sport, motorcycle racing is fantastic as a participant. Has to be apprecited by its participants as an exceptionally demanding sport. From a fan's perspective, it is difficult to understand all the different classes, etc. Also, there is no consistency in class structure at all (Pro/National, Semi-Pro, and regional levels) Makes it hard to be a fan if you are not involved.

I can't see motorcycle road racing getting any of the respect it deserves from non-participants for at least a decade.

Marcus

SMILEYMAN
06-11-2003, 03:52 PM
Very interesting poll. CART and F1 drivers are aided greatly by traction control, aerodynamics, and anti lock brakes. NHRA guys just hold the wheel and tune the car...NASCAR drivers do have to manage traction but only really shift and brake on road courses. Motocross is very demanding but the riders almost have to have as much athletic ability as they do actual driving skill. Sports car racing and motorcycle roadracing have to be the pinnacle of the driver/rider skill chart. They have the most direct man/machine connection and skill is more a consideration than machine technology/set up. When you compare those two, the man makes far more the difference in motorcycle racing...IMHO 'course
Smiley

Jeff Grant
06-11-2003, 04:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
From a "I don't know much about this sport" fans perspective, Nascar is easy to understand and grasp. (Guess it helps when there always left hand turns, and nicely colored cars /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif ).

As a sport, motorcycle racing is fantastic as a participant. Has to be apprecited by its participants as an exceptionally demanding sport. From a fan's perspective, it is difficult to understand all the different classes, etc. Also, there is no consistency in class structure at all (Pro/National, Semi-Pro, and regional levels) Makes it hard to be a fan if you are not involved.</div></div>That makes sense. It's just kinda aggravating every time I turn on Speed TV and 95% of the time, it's NASCAR. Money talks. Heck, TWo Wheel Tuesday and Sunday racing is better than nothing. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

John Orchard
06-11-2003, 04:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
...From a fan's perspective, it is difficult to understand all the different classes, etc. Also, there is no consistency in class structure at all (Pro/National, Semi-Pro, and regional levels) Makes it hard to be a fan if you are not involved.

I can't see motorcycle road racing getting any of the respect it deserves from non-participants for at least a decade.

Marcus</div></div>There were 74,000 (+) MotoGP fans at Mugello last weekend who might disagree with you on that one Marcus.

Amazing to catch some MotoGP/WSB action on Speedvision one hour and follow it up the next hour with what seemed like 10 'fans' in the stands at Pikes Peak during the Formula Xtreme race.

Jeff Grant
06-11-2003, 04:53 PM
Heck... 74,000 might be considered "low". I've heard/read numbers at Brands Hatch for WSB at 120,000+...! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif Still, that's in Europe... attendance numbers there will always be larger... unless MotoGP finally gets it's butt to the US sometime soon. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

A friend from England told me about a time when he attended a WSB race at Brands a few years back. There was something around 100,000+ fans. Anyway, it was a blistering hot day and the facility totally ran out of water, beer, etc. They were having to hose off people with water from mobile fire trucks (or something like that) to try and keep people cool. Of course, everybody makes a mad dash for the hose rainging water... then it's a meelee of people, hot, thirsty and PO'ed.

He also said that when he left, the traffic was horrible and what little "convenience stores" that were around were totally dry of fluids because of the track mishap.

I attended a WSB race at Donnington Park in 2000, and it was something else. Not all, but a much higher ration of the fans are FANATICS for their rider/team... like the crazed front row/50 yard line guys all painted up at a football game. The track was sweet.

darick
06-11-2003, 05:16 PM
I was at Silverstone last year and there was over 62 thou there on day of 40 degrees and pissin down rain. Miserable conditions to say the least.
Hey, I wasn't complaining at all. I got to the hand the flag to race #1 winner Colin.....whooohoooo!!!

panthercity
06-11-2003, 05:35 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Jeff Grant:
I can't believe NASCAR leads F1 racing... gimme a frickin' break. Advertising dollars at work here for sure. :rolleyes:

"Quick Jed... turn left! Wait a sec... ok, turn left again! Hang on... ok, gimme a left! Two-Four-Six-Eight... what's that spell!? No wait a sec, nevermind... quick, LEFT."</div></div>Would you believe that Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon swapped cars and ran the road course at Indy? Now, would you believe that in less than a dozen laps in Montoya's full-boat BMW-powered F1 car, Gordon was turning better lap times than Montoya? In the same car? On the same track? On the same day?

Although I find most NAPCAR races boring to the extreme, the top drivers in that series are extremely talented and deserve much more respect than they are given by most other racers.

And, as Montoya learned, hearding those skinny tired, 850 HP, 3400 lb bricks around requires a bit of skill as well...

m novak
06-11-2003, 07:22 PM
Sorry Keith... /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

Remember when Hayden and Andretti swapped rides? Andretti had a blast, Hayden was towed in because he spun out not able to control the car.

Either way...racing takes skill, regardless of what you are doing. If it didn't, I wouldn't be so darn slow!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Nate Weber
06-11-2003, 07:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Would you believe that Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon swapped cars and ran the road course at Indy? Now, would you believe that in less than a dozen laps in Montoya's full-boat BMW-powered F1 car, Gordon was turning better lap times than Montoya? In the same car? On the same track? On the same day?
</div></div>Uhhhhh NO! I don't know where you got that from. Everything I read said in the F1 car, Gordon was NOT as fast as Montoya was in the F1 car, and in the Trashcar, Montoya was not as fast as Gordon was in the Trashcar.

Here's my take on the Speedtv driver vote. In a technical perspective that is.... are you ready.

Everything is relative! Therefore like an engines power output you must put things into perspective.

Motorcycle engines, relatively speaking, don't make that much horsepower, not compared to say a Winstoncup engine. But motorcycle engines are fairly small, so if one compares them in relative terms, say as in specific output! i.e. Horsepower per unit displacement (HP/liter), well then motorcycle engines have a much higher value.

The same can be said with the speedtv driver contest. I believe what they are really talking about is specific driving ability. Or skill per unit of intelligence. Hypothetically, if a drivers skill is just ok, but his IQ is extremely low, well then his resulting specific driving ability will result in a high value.

This may be why people seem to be voting for Nascar drivers.

Hope this wasn't too confusing, if it was you too may have a high specific driving skill! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Travis Pierce
06-11-2003, 07:40 PM
qb][/QUOTE]That makes sense. It's just kinda aggravating every time I turn on Speed TV and 95% of the time, it's NASCAR. Money talks. Heck, TWo Wheel Tuesday and Sunday racing is better than nothing. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif [/QB][/QUOTE]

2 wheeled Tuesday!!! What a joke. There isn't no such thing as 2 wheeled Tuesday anymore. Example, this past Tuesday 3 races and that was it. Then the same 3 races got rebroadcast at 11-2am. The rest was Nascar and other 4 wheeled shows.

We don't get any respect at all. Even Speed doesn't give us any. Next time somebody watch a Nascar race and see how many commercials they have. Hell, we can't even get in 3 solid laps most of the time without going to a commercial. I taped a couple of shows the other day, edited out all the commercials. 1 show was 12 actual minutes of Motorcycles, the other was 16 minutes. THese were both 1 hr. shows.

Then they can't even get the times right for broadcasting sometimes. Hell even a rerun of some Nascar race took presedence over a live AMA race. Ya, money talks and Nascar seems to have it all.

It sucks and really pisses me off, but what can you do, you can only complain so much.

and that's all I have to say about that...........

panthercity
06-11-2003, 08:45 PM
WRONG BUTTON! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

panthercity
06-11-2003, 08:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Weber:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Would you believe that Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon swapped cars and ran the road course at Indy? Now, would you believe that in less than a dozen laps in Montoya's full-boat BMW-powered F1 car, Gordon was turning better lap times than Montoya? In the same car? On the same track? On the same day?
</div></div>Uhhhhh NO! I don't know where you got that from. Everything I read said in the F1 car, Gordon was NOT as fast as Montoya was in the F1 car, and in the Trashcar, Montoya was not as fast as Gordon was in the Trashcar.
</div></div>Mr. Announcer said Montoya was turning 1:17 somethings in the morning when Gordon came in from his first stint. They talked to Gordon about being within a second of Montoya at 1:18 and change. Gordon said that last second would be hard to come by. During Gordon's second stint he turned a 1:16:46...

marcus mcbain
06-11-2003, 08:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by John Orchard:
There were 74,000 (+) MotoGP fans at Mugello last weekend who might disagree with you on that one Marcus.

Amazing to catch some MotoGP/WSB action on Speedvision one hour and follow it up the next hour with what seemed like 10 'fans' in the stands at Pikes Peak during the Formula Xtreme race.[/QB]</div></div>Actually in Europe, racers make a respectable living "club racing" where 15K-20K people come out. When I was stationed in Germany, I thought I was at a "Big National" race that turned out to be a local club race. Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) hold motor cycle racing in a much higher light that the US.

Marcus

Travis Pierce
06-11-2003, 10:09 PM
Motorcycle Road Racing in Europe is like Nascar is over here. Very Popular.
If we could just get the crowds and reaction that they do over in Europe. Racing could be so much more over here then.

Joseph Browning
06-11-2003, 10:39 PM
What an awesome poll and really interesting thread. Bout time you numbskull motorheads talked about something cool!

Nascar= money
Formula1= prestige
motorcycle racing= courage and skill
Rally=skill and courage (in that order)

I would venture to say most of us would agree that Trashcar is not a real sport. If you haven't ever taken a beater out on a Friday night and raced with those guys around a loosely paved track I would encourage it. It's not nearly as easy as it looks. Granted when you get up in the money series it's a whole other story but going "left" aint just about going left. Try it sometime!

Formula 1- is just a political game as best I can tell. Nothing pisses me off more than Watching Schumi pressure people off the track. And why does Ferrari do it and why does Eck let em get away with it? Not the money. Ecc only has 1.4b of his reported 10b wrapped up in F1, hardly a drop in the bucket... I don't really understand that part of it...

UglyR6
06-11-2003, 11:37 PM
i'm surprised no one really gave much mention to World Rally. That is absolutely nuts!!!!
watching these guys take corners with their back ends coming around going 50-60mph with nothing but straight down over the mountain if they screw up.
i enjoy watching any race that has a right turn in it. that excludes ovals obviously.

Asscar sucks!

motogp is not far behind (16%). clear your cookies and go vote again! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

E. Templet
06-11-2003, 11:41 PM
I know that many people want motorcycle racing to become more popular in this country. But if it really did get to the level it is in Europe, would racing at the club level be controlled by sponsers and manufacturers? I think it would and I'm afraid it would be more commercialized, less accessable for us slow guys (ahem, non goals oriented racers /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ), and less fun. You just think it is expensive now. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

Formula 1 baby, I can't take watching a whole race, but those drivers are bad to the bone and the vehicles are space age technology.

marcus mcbain
06-12-2003, 05:47 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by E. Templet:
I know that many people want motorcycle racing to become more popular in this country. But if it really did get to the level it is in Europe, would racing at the club level be controlled by sponsers and manufacturers? I think it would and I'm afraid it would be more commercialized, less accessable for us slow guys (ahem, non goals oriented racers /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ), and less fun. You just think it is expensive now. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek.gif

</div></div>Hey Gene,
That is the problem. Many small minds (That don't want to "lose control" and have this sport "take off") have been conducting industry business (i.e. AMA) for decades that ensured this sport will remain a "little hobby". I think that every racer that have sacrificed their life, money, and efforts deserves for someone to run this sport right and let it grow like it can.

In Europe, races are sponsored by non-industry sponsors as much as industry sponsors. Even the lowest club races can draw 5k-10k people to watch. In short, it is a product that has real value for external advertising channels.

Just as important though is that there is much more sponsorship at the "dealer level". Sponsoring a local racer leads to direct sales. So, it is arguably cheaper for racers to be invovled as sponsorship does have an actual ROI.

Yeah, without a doubt a few racers would "be left behind", but we are decades away from that. The same argument could be made about US licensing laws vs. European licensing laws. Getting a license in Germany is tough, but you have much safer roads with DWI, etc. not tolerated at all. Many American counterparts would not qualify for a normal "drivers license" in Europe either.

Marcus

panthercity
06-12-2003, 07:20 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bob Dickey:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Nate Weber:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Would you believe that Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon swapped cars and ran the road course at Indy? Now, would you believe that in less than a dozen laps in Montoya's full-boat BMW-powered F1 car, Gordon was turning better lap times than Montoya? In the same car? On the same track? On the same day?
</div></div>Uhhhhh NO! I don't know where you got that from. Everything I read said in the F1 car, Gordon was NOT as fast as Montoya was in the F1 car, and in the Trashcar, Montoya was not as fast as Gordon was in the Trashcar.
</div></div>Mr. Announcer said Montoya was turning 1:17 somethings in the morning when Gordon came in from his first stint. They talked to Gordon about being within a second of Montoya at 1:18 and change. Gordon said that last second would be hard to come by. During Gordon's second stint he turned a 1:16:46...</div></div>Looks Like my hearing is gone as well. From IndyStar.com:

"Both were exceptional teachers and students. According to Gordon's crew chief, Robbie Loomis, Montoya ran a top lap of 1 minute, 39.9 seconds in the stock car, which was a mere 1.1 seconds behind what Gordon did in a shakedown session an hour prior. Gordon then ran 1:16.5 in Montoya's sophisticated car, remarkable given the Monaco winner's best lap was only 1.3 seconds quicker."

Oops! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

darick
06-12-2003, 07:38 AM
We all need to email Spike TV and tell 'em what we want guys........Motorcycles Racing!!!!!!

Lets go now........

Jeff Grant
06-12-2003, 04:42 PM
I saw the "Trading Paint" show on Speed last night... where Montoya and Gordon swapped cars. I must admit that Gordon impressed me and he did a smokin' job in the car, being that it was his first time and all. Not bad for a first timer and still being able to qualify if he wanted to race... heck, he even did a great launch, and the commentator's stated that "almost everybody" stalls the car on the first launch.

Good stuff.

Nate Weber
06-12-2003, 05:01 PM
It's a weighted comparison. If you read deeper and on some other websites you'll find that Gordon has allot of experience in open wheeled winged cars, unlimited outlaws and cars of that sort, PLUS, he has spent a considerable amount of time practicing (I believe last year) in Cart or Indy cars. He's no newby, granted he doesn't have an abundance of experience, but he is familiar with them. Of any Trashcar driver he is probably the most qualified for the F1 car scenario.
Now after saying all of that, I will admit that I think Gordon is a hell of a good driver, so I'm not trying to take anything away from him. I think Speedtv is being sneaky though!!!

E. Templet
06-12-2003, 10:48 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Marcus McBain:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div>Hey Gene,
That is the problem. Many small minds (That don't want to "lose control" and have this sport "take off") have been conducting industry business (i.e. AMA) for decades that ensured this sport will remain a "little hobby". I think that every racer that have sacrificed their life, money, and efforts deserves for someone to run this sport right and let it grow like it can. <snip>
Marcus[/QB]</div></div>Marcus,

Club racing is a gold mine for specialty companies. That's all it is, and all it will ever be. Who sponsors AMA races? Manufacturers, Vendors, Parts Houses, etc... Who buys their products? Us, "We" are the market. We've got them right where they want us. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif