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Bob Cronin
06-16-2003, 08:45 AM
Excuse me if I missed this discussion at an earlier point.
Saturday had practice sessions that were seperated by class, Am & Ex. I understand the point of this but endurance bikes have different levels of riders on them and are not coded by plate alone.
At Hallett we were told that the Am rider could go out with his class as long as we put yellow tape around the numbers. We did so and all was good. We were told that again at TWS and got scolded to not try that stunt again. Not to be crude but WTF?
Our team was not alone on this matter and I think that it needs to be addressed. How do endurance teams get equal time on the bike if you won't let the riders go out on a specific bike because you of the plate color? If the rider is of THAT specific level (Am/Ex), let him/her out to practice.
With this logic you are going to have me (Am) out with the white plates and Experts out on yellow plated bikes. So the system is defeating itself in the end. Why not tag us by helmet?

bdmpastx
06-16-2003, 09:00 AM
I had the same problem too Bob, I was wearing the Yellow shirt and I had to go out with experts due to the number plates...even with the yellow shirt on...

Bryan Norton
06-16-2003, 09:42 AM
Isn't that what transponder practice is for?

Greg Williams
06-16-2003, 09:55 AM
Bryan, I think that our team may be a good example of the issue here. Team Silverback has three members, we've never raced at TWS until this year, ideally we would like to get each team member out for one session which would require running in Amateur, Expert and Transponder. I think that maximizing our potential practice time would enhance our safety and overall safety. As the rule is currently being interpreted on endurance days the Amateur/Expert segreagation is based on the color of the number plate, not the experience of the rider. I'm not sure that that is effective for endurance riders. Thanks.

Walter Walker
06-16-2003, 10:18 AM
I'll work on it.

Bob Cronin
06-16-2003, 10:35 AM
Perfect.
Thanks Walter.

Brad Thomas
06-16-2003, 10:46 AM
The practice sessions are the best I've seen in years. We had 4 sessions, 2 transponder, 1 white & 1 yellow plate. Each team can practice in 3 sessions. If your team has a mixture of am/ex you could go out in all 4 as soon as the confusion Bob is talking about is cleared up.
Other than the communication mix up between officials the practice sessions are organized quite well in my opinion.
Thanks Walter.

Brett
06-16-2003, 01:54 PM
Why not just let the endurance teams go out in all the sessions? Going out "by the plate" has worked pretty well, but you do get in situations with a novice on a white-plate bike, and you also get the opposite with fast experts scaring all the yellow plates because he is on a yellow plate bike.

Sending bikes out "by the plate" is easy to police, but does have a few holes in the theory. Sending bike out "by the rider" is impossible to police and will put honest teams comprised of amatuers only or experts only at a one practice session disadvantage.

If a rider is paying for practice only he gets the sticker on his bike displaying which session he wants (amatuer or expert, based on the rider), if the bike in an endurance bike the transponder can be the all access pass for practice....

Brett

Eric Kancir
06-16-2003, 02:26 PM
I agree with Brett.....we also ran into that problem. Maybe put 2 stickers on the bike for practice or use the transponder as an ID.

Jeff6R
06-16-2003, 03:01 PM
I do like the new practice format, but I agree this is a problem. Especially when (correct me if I'm wrong) experts are let out in amateur practice knowingly because they have more than one bike they are trying to get practice on.

I personally would be happy with endurance teams riding in all the sessions. I'd probably actually be happier practicing with the experts, but I'm not sure they'd be too keen on the idea. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif And I think amateur practice should be for amateurs only because yellow shirts and riders unfamiliar with the track should be able to get a session to get up to speed w/o experts thrown in with them.

So it should probably be only amateurs in amateur practice and experts in expert practice. After all, I already get my chance to try and chase experts (as much as I'm able to anyway :rolleyes: ) in the transponder practice. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Bob Cronin
06-16-2003, 03:16 PM
"...amateurs in amateur practice and experts in expert practice."

Jeff-
This would be a fine system if it applied to sprint practices only. Endurance teams have multiple skill sets per team regardless of plate color. How is am I, and amateur, going to get practice in my class if I am on a team that has a white plate? How does an expert get practice on a team that has a yellow plate?
Are going to force endurance teams to be all expert and/or all amateur and paint the face accordingly? If so, how do you control the guest rider that fills in from another team or the replacement if a team member bails?

m novak
06-16-2003, 04:42 PM
I say do one set length of open practice, when you consider amatures and experts are mixed in the race, you can't call a "safety" issue.

Take the hour and a half alloted to practice (or hour, whatever it is), throw the green and don't throw the checker until an hour and a half is up. That will let each team manage their time vs. needs as they see fit. Transponders can be checked during this time, and at the 45min mark teams not regestering will have their names posted in registration/scoring. It will be the teams responsibility to walk over and make sure they are beeping or what not.

For novice sprinters who only use saturday for practice...well...welcome to the big leauges. Being out there with experts faster than you is safer than being out there with novices faster than you.

IMHO

Mark

m novak
06-16-2003, 04:43 PM
oops /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

John Orchard
06-16-2003, 04:53 PM
Mark - they tried that last year, it didn't work well. You mayhave missed that race! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

m novak
06-16-2003, 05:08 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by John Orchard:
Mark - they tried that last year, it didn't work well. You mayhave missed that race! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif </div></div>Must've been in Atlanta /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Oh, well. I'm out of ideas then. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

What about it didn't work well? Just curious.

waytooslow
06-16-2003, 05:27 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mark Novak:
For novice sprinters who only use saturday for practice...well...welcome to the big leauges. Mark</div></div>I forgot........... this is "club" racing is it not!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Scott

m novak
06-16-2003, 06:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Scott Millspaugh:
</div></div>I forgot........... this is "club" racing is it not!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

Scott[/QB][/QUOTE]

Good job cutting off the second sentence...when you read it like it was written

"For novice sprinters who only use saturday for practice...well...welcome to the big leauges. Being out there with experts faster than you is safer than being out there with novices faster than you."

You can clearly see that the intention of that comment was to illustrate that despite getting "thrown to the wolves" or "joining the big leauges" they will find that it is in fact a safer enviorment being out there with wicked fast experts than it is being out there with fast novices.

Yes this is club racing, and as such you have incredible closing speeds in some instances. Wouldn't you rather learn to deal with them when half the equation has the experience and knowledge to be safe on his end???

My original post that you chopped was not intended as a "shut up and deal with it" post...I apologize if it came across that way. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Walter Walker
06-16-2003, 06:46 PM
The practice format has been debated for years. It all comes down to the fact that each person wants it to fit his or her personal situation. Thats just human nature. Since it is pretty hard for our Pit Steward to check each and every RIDER as they enter the track it is possible that someone can sneek out in the wrong session. Endurance practice is based on the HONOR SYSTEM. White plate and yellow plate sessions divide practice up for those who just enter practice as well for the endurance teams. Team Captians, set up a practice Schedule for Your team and stick to it. In the mean time I will try to come up with a solution to this problem.

BrianLee
06-16-2003, 07:22 PM
They tried the all in one practice for an hour....worst experience ive ever had on a bike way too many bikes. Sprint , prov nov , and endurance on track all at one time..it was at cresson which is a shorter track but if it scared me i would hate too know how it felt too the riders some of the experts were passing 5 at a time in 1 corner, that was way to dangerous for all...

Jeff6R
06-16-2003, 08:19 PM
Bob - I'm saying I think some of the amateur's could really use the practice time w/o expert's mixed in. Conversely, I imagine the expert's would rather get some good clean laps in for at least one practice session. That can't really happen if practice is based on bikes rather than people, so I definitely agree with your point. But I see how it might be rather difficult to police, and I don't have any great ideas. Maybe we could just force amateurs to wear yellow helmets and experts white? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Bob Cronin
06-16-2003, 08:30 PM
But I don't look good in yellow! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Derek Delpero
06-17-2003, 01:25 AM
Having one long practice session won't work. We have to have at least 1, preferably 2 transponder only practice sessions. That is the only way we can make sure everyone has a transponder on their bike and that the transponder is properly working.

TXFZ1
06-17-2003, 09:46 PM
Novices and expert are going to race each other, whynot practice together. Run odd then even number plates to split it up.

David