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View Full Version : Frame and VIN / Engine #s



Joseph Browning
07-21-2003, 05:32 PM
This weekend we were approached regarding a blank frame. I guess it was Eric Kelcher (sp) that we spoke with. I have a few questions about this that were left unanswered and I would like to know how best to protect ourselves from problems in the future.

If a frame is blank, or without any kind of VIN #, how does that particular bike qualify (or not qualify) for contingency or entry?

Is a clean bill of sale for your Engine # an acceptable form of ownership of the motorcycle for and as an offroad vehicle?

If an Engine # is used instead of a VIN # on the registration does the bike "become" the year model bike that the ENGINE is from?

Are there any other explicit problems with running a blank frame?

Thanks yall!

Mitchel
07-21-2003, 09:14 PM
Yeah, it means all of Short Buses points should be given to Lone Star Track Days!!!

David Hirsch
07-21-2003, 09:44 PM
Joe, I do not know about the club but by having a frame with no VIN # you run the chance of the vehicle being confiscated and having to prove to a Judge that the vehicle is yours. DPS will apply a number for you so you can title the vehicle and prove it is yours. You can not use an engine number as a VIN #. DPS will apply a number that reflects the vehicle information. If you have any specific questions let me know.
David

Joseph Browning
07-21-2003, 10:05 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Mitchel Bynum:
Yeah, it means all of Short Buses points should be given to Lone Star Track Days!!!</div></div>HA! Actually it was in regards to a sprint bike. But nice try! I appreciate your enthusiasm! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Joseph Browning
07-21-2003, 10:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by David Hirsch:
DPS will apply a number for you so you can title the vehicle and prove it is yours. </div></div>Wow, thanks David- you are always a wealth of information. So I can just contact local branch of DPS and have them assign a VIN, even though it's not street legal and will never be street legal?

Brooks Gremmels
07-22-2003, 11:32 AM
Regarding the question about VIN and identification numbers, this is an issue that deserves further comment.
Recently the Houston police department made inquiries regarding this subject after uncovering an alleged stolen motorcycle/motorcycle parts operation. The CMRA fully cooperated in the effort to bring the agency up-to-speed on the particlarities of the situation. Maybe I should refer to them as "peculiarities", because the concept of having GP bikes without frame numbers and bikes with replacement frames is peculiar to the conventional norm employed with street-legal machinery.
But the fact is that it is the racer's obligation to provide proof when required of ownership and in the case of manufacturer's contingency programs, compliance with stipulated manufacturing dates. Bills of Sale, Manufacturer's Statements of Origan (MSO) carrying ing the old frame with the original VIN# (to support the legality of the replacement frame), etc., are steps we can take to minimize confusion about the purported provinance of a racebike. Get your paperwork together before your life is made miserable because you haven't.
This past weekend at Hallett, we were blindsided by Mr and Mrs Kelcher's surprize inspection program. Not that the sanctioning body doesn't have the right to conduct check's to insure compliance with contingency programs. In fact, I Agree with the idea of post-race tech inspections to insure that candidates for manufacter's awards are indeed complying with the rules. (I believe that WERA has a similiar procedure). In the future, the CMRA will take it upon itself to conduct these types of post-race procedures.
BUT, had CCS asked the CMRA officials to perform the post-race tech procedure, the CMRA would have been more than glad to do so. Had the club been informed that such a procedure was going to be requied, the CMRA would have done so with proper planning to insure that over-heated bikes and over-heated racers were taken into consideration. How about a cool down lap, for instance?
Could the CMRA not be trusted by CCS to set-up and conduct such a procedure? Could CMRA officials not be trusted to provide accurate information gathered at a post-race inspection? Could the CMRA's members not be trusted with the information that they would be subjected to a new, post-race tech procedure? Why the blindside approach?? Surely it wouldn't be to hopefully embarrass the club in the eyes of its future contingency sponsors. The only thing that we do know is that the approach taken was to try to "catch" potential violaters, not to educate the organization or its members.
There will be further announcements about the CMRA's own post-race tech policy. We simply want to be able to assure manufacturers and other contingency sponsors that their money and prizes are being awarded to those who have fully complied with the rules. I can personally insure any interested party that the CMRA can be trusted to handle the procedure fairly and accurately.
In the meantime, the insult handed to the organization by the failure to even inform the club that such a procedure was going to be conducted, not the fact that such a procedure was conducted, should convince all of us that the correct decision was made in putting some distance between our club and its current sanctioning body.
Brooks

Eric Kelcher
07-28-2003, 10:04 AM
Corrections and comments in bold italics by Eric

This past weekend at Hallett, we were blindsided by Mr and Mrs Kelcher's surprize inspection program. Not that the sanctioning body doesn't have the right to conduct check's to insure compliance with contingency programs. In fact, I Agree with the idea of post-race tech inspections to insure that candidates for manufacter's awards are indeed complying with the rules. (I believe that WERA has a similiar procedure). In the future, the CMRA will take it upon itself to conduct these types of post-race procedures.
BUT, had CCS asked the CMRA officials to perform the post-race tech procedure, the CMRA would have been more than glad to do so. We were told by Walter that there were no personnel to do this. Had the club been informed that such a procedure was going to be requied, The club had been informed at least twice this year! once at the Big Mac when Barry McMahon picked up inspection equipment and again when Brooks had been copied about possible contingency violations and that things needed to be more thoroughly checked in addition Nancy Selleck had been around FUSA/CCS run races for a number of years and knew of policy the CMRA would have done so with proper planning to insure that over-heated bikes The CMRA determined procedure for where tech inspection would occur, I suggested to Walter that it be done in the tech shed to get riders out of sun and over-heated racers were taken into consideration. If this was in fact a concern instead of trying to irritate riders with CCS why did CMRA call for top 10 riders to report to tech shed then have none there to deal with 6-10 as CCS had only request top 5?How about a cool down lap, for instance? CMRA decided to not do a cool down lap, No demand, suggestion or hint of no cool down was made by CCS
Could the CMRA not be trusted by CCS to set-up and conduct such a procedure? You do not want this answered Could CMRA officials not be trusted to provide accurate information gathered at a post-race inspection? Staff was not available and it had not been all year according to Walter Could the CMRA's members not be trusted with the information that they would be subjected to a new, post-race tech procedure? Why had CMRA not followed protocol or inform riders that it was standard operating procedure? Why the blindside approach?? Again you do not want this answered Surely it wouldn't be to hopefully embarrass the club in the eyes of its future contingency sponsors. Contingency sponsors have no knowledge of what riders claimed vs. what they had used as only the "used" contingency forms would be submitted The only thing that we do know is that the approach taken was to try to "catch" potential violaters, not to educate the organization or its members. Why are you or your team feeling guilty?
There will be further announcements about the CMRA's own post-race tech policy. We simply want to be able to assure manufacturers and other contingency sponsors that their money and prizes are being awarded to those who have fully complied with the rules. I can personally insure any interested party that the CMRA can be trusted to handle the procedure fairly and accurately Why didn't the CMRA when instructed to? In the meantime, the insult handed to the organization by the failure to even inform the club that such a procedure was going to be conducted, not the fact that such a procedure was conducted, should convince all of us that the correct decision was made in putting some distance between our club and its current sanctioning body. Why was there no discussion of the independence option and issues with the sanctioning body rather than a “blindside” announcement?
Brooks

[b]And other than this announcement from CMRA there has been no discussion publicly of the contingency checks and would not have been.[b/]

07-28-2003, 10:28 AM
ERIC -what is going on here? To Quote you "...you don't want that question answered..." TWICE you used that phrase; clearly intended to be some sort of implied insult. If there is some problem with the leadership and/or staff of CMRA that you wish to communicate, PLEASE DO SO IS A CLEAR AND DIRECT FASHION. Frankly, your post reads like something written in the local middle school...

In effect Brooks asked a question "... why couldn't..." and you said, I know something but I'm not going to say what. This is a public forum and Brooks asked in a public way. What's with the implied critisim? If you have something to say, say it. iF YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY IT IN PUBLIC, THEN WHY RESPOND AT ALL....

Very tacky.

Join the grown-ups, would you.

Chuck McCoy
"Think clearly, speak clearly"

bentracing
07-28-2003, 10:40 AM
Hey Brooks and BOD,
Do we HAVE to wait until the end of the year to go independent?
Or do I "not want this question answered"?
I would think that the constant barrage of insulting critiques from CCS staff on our message board would convince even the die hard fans of affiliation that independence is best!
Give us liberty, or give us uh, bicycles!
Hey Eric, go play on your own message board.
ty
The opinions expressed here are my personal views and do not necessarily represent the views of ICE Motorsports.

Eric Kelcher
07-28-2003, 10:46 AM
no implied insult just reasons should not be made public unless those involoved on both sides want that.

Louis Reinartz
07-28-2003, 11:08 AM
Well CMRA is run by it's members. If there is a problem no reason to hide it.Lets get the issue out in the open so we can deal with it...if there in fact is a issue to deal with.

Bryan Norton
07-28-2003, 11:37 AM
Eric,

Can you show me where in the CCS rulebook, contingency form, or otherwise where the process for a post race inspection is documented? I was not at the bic mac meeting, so maybe there was paperwork there which outlines how this should be handled?

You worked for the CMRA for many years and were on the BoD until you resigned, you are fully aware of how the CMRA handles contingency.

Could you not have worked with us rather than shown up at noon on a race day to enforce this rule?

I find it interesting that the race day assistance provided by CCS is to try and catch riders misusing contingency, rather than scoring, registration, cornerworking, or other race day help.

I have absolutely nothing against the requirement, and agree that we should inspect the machines for possible misuse of the contingency requirements, I just wish we could have worked better together.

BTW - why should only the top 5 machines be inspected, if contingency is available to the top 10? Does this mean CCS does not check machines 6-10 at other races? Why is this so?

Eric Kelcher
07-28-2003, 11:54 AM
Bryan it was discussed at Big Mac this year more so than previous years, including what was inspected and inspection tools were issued for airbox/filter inspectons. Yes I knew how it was handled and per the discussions CMRA was made aware of what needed to be checked and when. This is not in rulebook it is guidelines from contingency sponsors and what CCS had set up that was approved by them.

Post race inspection IS part of race day operations. There was no request of any other help to myself, Tiffiney, or Kevin. Yes, I have checked.

Why just top 5? that is what was selected that could be handled by two people in quick efficient manner. Others are pulled and sent to tech by grid marshalls that might be questionable in other regions. Why no communication to post race tech of who top 5 were? Why did CMRA want top 10 then do nothing with those in 6-10 since they had requested those people to come to post race tech? Why did CMRA not have anyone there to see what checks are made? Why no assistance?

Tim Haas
07-28-2003, 12:15 PM
I am with Ty, can we become independent now?

Eric what seems to be your major malfunction? Ever sense the rest of the board did not agree with your ideas and you resigned, you have been on some sort of mission to disrupt the CMRA. Granted you have done allot for our sport and I respect you for that, but stop stirring up crap! To be frank I am sick of it, and I know a for fact I am not the only member who feels this way. The longer you continue to belly ache and continue to pull these antics, the less (what little remains) respect I and other members are going to have for you. So do me and the CMRA members a favor, and give it a rest! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Tim Haas
CMRA #4

Note: I listed my competition number because I know you have a problem with that too! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Eric Kelcher
07-28-2003, 12:23 PM
Not going against my ideas, the fact that info was given to mass media and proported to be my beliefs/thoughts/leanings when in fact they were not is why I resigned.
The disinformation that is spread about me and about what is truely happening is what I have a problem with.

Yes, Tim that is rather disrepectful that number was retired in respect you prove you have none.

Nick Chapman
07-28-2003, 12:26 PM
Just my $0.02 on the frame not having any #'s

Most of you will not remember Oak Hill in 1998. But, I had a bike that I bought from Kinko's Kawasaki. It was a ZX6R, and had no frame #'s. It was a pre-production bike(or so I was told).
Well, we went to the first Oak Hill in 1998, and the cops blocked the gate. No one went out until thier bikes #'s were checked.
Even thought I had all of my paperwork to prove that I had bought and payed for the bike LEGALLY. They still took it. It took me about 2 months, and SEVERAL trips down to Henderson Texas to finally get my bike back. Robert Nut(from Kinko's Kawasaki), acually had to come down and help me fight for my bike.
My bike sat in an OUTDOOR impound yard for the entire time that they had it. Plus I had to pay the impound fee's.

Take this for what it is worth. But, I will NEVER buy another bike without the proper ID #'s

Nick

Walter Walker
07-28-2003, 12:28 PM
Mr. Kelcher,
I have a few things that I would like to clear up.

The CMRA would've been glad to provide personnel for post-race inspection, however I was not notified by you or any CCS official/personnel that it would be required at this event (Hallett) until Sunday morning when you and Mrs. Kelcher came to me just before lunch. As you should remember from your experience as a CMRA official, we take a minimal staff to Hallett. If I would have been notified prior to the event, I would have been glad to make arrangements for extra personnel. I was under the impression after our conversation that I need not to worry about personnel because CCS would be taking care of it, you and Mrs. Kelcher would be handling it. You even stated to me that you and your wife would be MORE than happy to take care of it and that CCS would be doing this in all regions nationwide throughout the remainder of the season. Your reasoning to me was that someone had been caught claiming items on their contingency form that they weren't actually using.

Since the issue of post tech was brought to me at the last minute, I was forced to come up with something to accomodate the CCS request, keep us on schedule and take in consideration the riders that were running back to back races. I chose to exit all bikes through the gate between turns 9 and 10 so they would pass directly through or around the tech barn to speed up the post tech process. At the riders meeting, I called for top 5-10 in each of the affected classes to check in with the CCS officials for inspection. I assumed that CCS officials would simply wave off those they didn't require for inspection. FYI, we were planning on exiting all bikes through the gate betweeen turns 8 and 9 anyway.

I have yet to find anywhere in the CCS rulebook or on the contingency award claim form that demands a post tech inspection at all events. As a matter of fact, in my 15 years with the CMRA as a rider and official, we have never done or been directed to do a post tech inspection for contengency purposes by our sanctioning body until now.

Regarding your statements "You don't want me to answer that", YES I DO! Eric, be a man, don't be afraid to say what is on your mind, you haven't held your tongue before, why now? As a CCS official, why don't you give us your answers. BTW, what is your official title with CCS? Since you regularly speak for CCS, you must have some sort of title.

I eagerly await your response! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Tim Haas
07-28-2003, 12:41 PM
I have the up most respect for Hugh Humble, his memory, and his family. If his number was retired, than why was it on Joe Prussiano's bike in 2001-2002? I was offered the number at the beginning of the year and gladly excepted it. There is no disrespect involved, besides the only person this seems to be offending, is you.

Tim Haas

Eric Kelcher
07-28-2003, 12:47 PM
as far as checks it was done nationwide on that weekend. What happens at future events I have no idea.

How would we know who to wave off? we never recieved a top 5 for any race.

Were you at the operations summit? AKA Big Mac? You need to ask why you were not given or informed of requirements. Why did you not recieve the mid year corrspondance regarding national problem and that contingecy checks needed to be more thorough?

My position with CCS is transport, dyno operations and deployment/maintenance of airfence.

Bryan Norton
07-28-2003, 01:14 PM
"My position with CCS is transport, dyno operations and deployment/maintenance of airfence. "

Except with the CMRA, where you stopped deploying and maintaining airfence in 2003...

Anyway, you keep saying this was communicated at the Big Mac.

Was this in writing?

I'm not pulling hairs, but if we are to follow a procedure, I would like to follow one that all CCS clubs do, for the remainder of our tenure. I have not seen a written document on how to perform or set up a post race tech.

I want us to finish out the year properly with CCS and not generate more issues.

G-Man
07-28-2003, 02:45 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CCS is transport, dyno operations and deployment/maintenance of airfence. </div></div>Exactly how does post-race contingency inspections fall into that job scope? Are there any other duties for CCS that you're (or your wife for that matter) reponsible for that CMRA BOD and members should be made aware of?

UglyR6
07-28-2003, 05:06 PM
This is a case of 'sour grapes' nothing else. :rolleyes:

waytooslow
07-28-2003, 06:25 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Eric Kelcher:
.....

How would we know who to wave off? we never recieved a top 5 for any race.....

</div></div>Guess that would be the first 5- 10 off the track ???? From where I stand being a new guy.. it seems like sore grapes.

And pray tell, other than tires (you can see the name brand), how can you enforce contingency awards on brake pads, oils fuel, etc... dismantle, have portable lab????...

Glad to see the BOD take the steps it has...

Scott Millspaugh

Joseph Browning
07-28-2003, 08:04 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Scott Millspaugh:

And pray tell, other than tires (you can see the name brand), how can you enforce contingency awards on brake pads, oils fuel, etc... dismantle, have portable lab????...

Scott Millspaugh[/QB]</div></div>I would imagine that most sponsors at our level really only care that you run their stickers and represent their product in a good light. I bought some parts off an AMA race bike a few months ago and I kept finding all these interesting little pieces that did not match the sponsor logos on the belly pan. :-)

marcus mcbain
07-28-2003, 08:39 PM
It seems that indeed that advanced notice could have avoided a lot of problems with this whole affair.

FWIW: A majority of club's in the country run a post race tech. This weekend at Colorado, the top 5 were torn down in several of the money classes. Because we (CMRA/CRRC) have not done this for some time, it appears a "foriegn" affair to most. Post race tech only solidifies that the contingency sponsors are paying what they intended to. Obviously oils and brake pads are hard to prove without first hand installation, but post race tech is a good insurance policy to communicate product usage to the sponsors.

Van Blaylock
07-28-2003, 08:40 PM
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU ALL!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif This club has completely lost its mind!!! I have seen so many changes since I first began racing in '98 and unfortunately most of what I have witnessed has not been what I would consider beneficial to the club. This sort of behavior has become increasingly frequent and quite repulsive!! I believe that this is due to the structure of the club itself, meaning the body, governing structure, and the ethical code to which we all should adhere.
Unfortunately, majority of the club members are amateurs; therefore, what I would call inexperienced and ignorant in the ways of racing and how such an organization should be run. And when a club body is immature and inexperienced then, the governing body is likely to be as well. As a reader, do not misunderstand what is being said. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an amateur, EVERYONE begins as one. In fact, I would challenge all our current amateurs to stick with it and realize the full potential of what racing has to offer.
Now that I have finished my disclaimer, I want to express how much this exhibited behavior concerns me because of what effects this composition has on a potentially outstanding club. Our alleged leadership is suffering greatly from its own efforts. To anyone who frequents the MBOARD it becomes very clear that there is a very distinct line drawn between the members of this club. However, a person would not want to get too hung up on this because it is merely a symptom of the real problem.
What scares me is that from what I can tell this real problem has more folds than an origami swan. Primarily rooted around personal vendettas and agendas, these things have no place anywhere on earth or in our club. I am sure that if asked individually 99.999% percent of the club would agree with me on that point. For example, at first glance the subject at hand on this thread would appear to be contingency violators. Or is it unauthorized inspection, or was it violation of the implied chain of command, or favoritism, or something else? I think that the motivations of Eric and Brooks are not pure of heart regardless of what alibi they present. Which is very amateurish, I say so because if I were the leader of a club of this caliber that was having similar problems I would be totally embarrassed by the on-goings within the club, especially if I were a contributor in anyway. This is amateurish in every way; furthermore, this behavior demonstrates a serious lack of concern and foresight for the well being of the club.
Then comes my last point, which is the clubs ethical behavior or lack thereof. As mentioned many times by all parties participating in this debacle, the CMRA is a member run organization. If this is so, then all members should have access to all relevant information about this club. Obviously, this is not happening. If every member knew what was really going on then there would not be any “cloud of mystery” around the officials of this club. The refusal of the governing body to lay to rest the personal issues between them constitutes unethical behavior. Not because of the issues when regarded separately, but because of the effects these underlying issues are having on the club as a whole. Eric and Brooks… look at what is happening because of your finger pointing and back biting! You are turning the club against each other! You are both intelligent people who are wise enough to know that most people are not easily able to separate logic and emotion. This continued behavior leaves much room for speculation as to both of your personal convictions. And this worries me because, I know this allows other people to make assumption about the both of you which are most likely very crude and unfair.
I implore all who read this to take seriously the matter at hand and not to join in the pack dog mentality that is overwhelming this club. Do we race for some stupid $50 certificate that will be spent faster than can be accumulated or do we race for the fun and camaraderie of it all? I believe the latter, and this used to be very apparent years ago when a different crowd roamed the track. If any member wishes to see amazing results from their effort he or she should dedicate time and effort (as I have) not just money. Sure money will be spent but a person can only go so fast on an Eric Bostrom replica Ducati, at some point knowledge, wisdom and experience must take over. Just in the same way, the CMRA can only go so far with the amateurish attitude of the body, officials, and ethical outlook before a terrible and potentially fatal crash results. There must be resolution and right that soon! Sadly, judging from the course thus far I do not see any hope for our current leadership structure. I pray that I am wrong and that a new leaf can be turned but, if not then a changing of the guard is probably our only hope.

Signed with the deepest concern,
Van Blaylock
for President 2004

cedestech
07-28-2003, 09:18 PM
Miss a thread or two...miss alot!

I cut out of Hallet before all of this came down
and it doesn't look like I missed much.

With it so obvious us going independant next year you'd think the CCS would want to leave us with a
good taste in our mouths instead of bad but
heh!... thats what you get for thinking!

As for the back biting and inuindo and hushed tones surounding things... I think alot of that is carry over from previous greivances.

We are all human. No matter how big or propper we
try to act it is in human nature that we are quick to judge and slow to forgive. You can't
fight genetics.

I have a rant I am going to post later. I was thinking of it this afternoon while working on scooters and drinking beer.
(2 favorite pastimes!)
I need to get permission to quote some people first.

Funny thing is it was completely thought of
before this thread but is completely relevant to this thread.

Go figure.

Ronnie Lunsford
07-29-2003, 02:07 AM
OK, the negative vibes here are making me almost
as sick as I was at Hallett...........

Our club is a great place to be !!!!!!!!

Do you want to be a member of the Mover and
Shaker's Club or the Pisser and Moaner's Club ?

As my mother used to say, " If you don't
have anything good to say, you shouldn't
say anything at all !!!!!!"

How about some positive vibes ?????????????
Let's Race !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bryan Norton
07-29-2003, 08:28 AM
Wow, a thread strong enough to make Ronnie post!

Addressing Van Blaylock-
Im not sure what 'clouds of mystery' there are surrounding the club and direction; club members get financial data, race entry data, and BoD meeting notes. Regarding the functions of the club we get endurance lap times posted, article submission to RoadRacing World, A timely newsletter, registration which opens as early as 6:30am to reduce wait times, and so much more.

No one on the board is against post-race inspection. The CMRA has not done it for the almost nine years I have been here, and Walter says he hasn't seen it in 15 years. It was just an uncomfortable situation, and we will adjust to ensure there is a post race tech throughout the rest of this year.

What I would like to have, is a process outlined to help us follow the procedure as other clubs handle it. I will see if we can get that from another club.

Danny Dominguez
07-29-2003, 08:45 AM
We still racing at TWS Sept 6th and 7th....Been here 15yrs,Dustin (my 13yr old) has been racing here for the past 4yrs.......we'll be here another 15 or so.We just like racing you guys.I make my living chasing bad guys(i'm a cop),I go to CMRA events to have fun!!!! Some of us have forgot why we race these contraptions.ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!

Brooks Gremmels
07-29-2003, 09:23 AM
Van, there are no hidden agendas of which I am aware. I think Eric has been clear about his relationship with CCS and his loyality to that organization. I believe that my words and actions for the past five years should provide adaquate proof of my support of roadracing in general and the CMRA, in particular. The recent decision to split with CCS and to become more broadly aligned with other roadracing clubs and sanctioning bodies obviously puts Eric and me on opposite sides of the fence.
Reread my post about the post-race inspection at Hallett. I quickly admitted that this is a procedure that the CMRA should institute (and will do so beginning now-procedure to be announced this week). I had/have a problem with the manner in which the procedure was carried out and I publically stated so in this forum. Re-thinking the situation, I should have bitten my tongue and not joined the fray. There was no upside for me as an individual or an officer in the club to respond to the situation on this message board. I apologize for this.
But I will not apologize for the overall dedication and actions reflecting this dedication by the club's elected BOD. The structure, as you point out, creates problems in terms of the overall management of the CMRA. As a not-for-profit corporation with a Board of Directos elected by the membership and a staff that is paid on a scale only one rung up fron volunteer, it is a handful to run. It would be so much easier if it were a for-profit, privately held corporation. That way management could make decisions, announce the decisions and get on with the business at hand. No direct accountability except to a limited number of shareholders. This structure would also provide the incentive for the shareholders to make investments, to seek funding and so on.
But that is not the way the CMRA was started and that is not the way it is structured or managed today. Rather, the membership, to your consternation apparently, is exposed on a regular basis to the "process of making the sausage". The membership is encouraged to appreciate its role in the decision making process. As a result topics are not merely announced, they are actively discussed. There are not enough hours in the day for the BOD to communicate in the finest detail everything that has entered into a discussion or a decision. Consequently, many BBS threads are joined by members who don't have all of the facts but have all of the passion. It is a sometimes nasty business, just like "making sausage" but it is a necessary part of being a not-for profit, member-run club.
If you are interested I will tell you that the negative aspects of this process are hard on me. I have a tendency to take things personally and have to remind myself that every member has an equal right to an opinion. I would like to think that my decisions are better informed since I work on CMRA business for 4 to 6 hours a day. But I still have my biases and personal faults that admittedly form part of my opinions, etc. It is the disagreements that sometimes start to turn personal though that shouldn't be a part of the process. But guess what? We are all human.
I would have hoped that you would have been pleased with the things that have transpired in the CMRA over the past two or three years. I can say that the response of the membership in general has been overwhelmingly positive. We will keep trying to win the appreciation of the membership but there will always be those who don't agree with the agenda or direction taken by any current administration.
My conscience is clear about one thing though. I, and the rest of the BOD, have been totally dedicated to the overall health and improvement of the CMRA. There have been no personal agendas advanced. We have put our resources, time, money and energy into this effort. Unfortunately you can't please all of the people, all of the time.
Brooks

Stuart Fulton
07-29-2003, 10:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure money will be spent but a person can only go so fast on an Eric Bostrom replica Ducati, at some point knowledge, wisdom and experience must take over.</div></div>All I want to know is where I can get one of them Eric Bostrom replica Ducati's. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

jaws
07-29-2003, 11:52 AM
Just started racing with the CMRA this year. Has been a great time. Whatever happens between the CCS and CMRA will not affect my decision to keep racing with the CMRA. Personally I think the CMRA has done a good job, hell I have a hard enough time just making sure my bike is ready and my gear is loaded on the trailer /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif .

Do not know any of the BOD personally but I would like to thank them for thier time and effort!

P.S Any thought in the racers buying their own transponders to make scoring easier, I'm in if they are not over 3 bills. (Don't flame me if this has been mentioned and shot down before.)

Bryan Norton
07-29-2003, 01:19 PM
Chris -
Hang in there, we are working something out!

Louis Reinartz
07-29-2003, 01:26 PM
Brooks and the rest of the BoD,
Thank you for al the hours you spend working on the issues that have to do with "us" the racers.. You all spend countless hours working to benifit the racers and the sport/hobby we enjoy, time you could spend doing other things I am sure.
I don't know all the details nor do I want to know them.Personal issues or whatever,when you are not directly involved in a volunteer organization you have to rely on the people in leadership postions to do what has to be done for the good of all. I believe the BoD does that.
After reading the post I dont know what it's about..is it about frame/vin #'s or is it about post race tech inspections or cheating the contingency sponsors, or all of those things.
Bottom line thanks for all the BoD does so we as a club can race.

Van Blaylock
07-29-2003, 05:03 PM
just to clarify, when I made the remark about progress I had in my mind the internal strength and resolve of the club body and the increasingly rapid turnover rate of riders. Because, in my mind true progress begins within and then manifests itself in an outward manner.

Oh, and I meant BEN not eRiC :p
GoOd oN Ya mAtE

E. Templet
07-29-2003, 05:56 PM
You bunch of thread hijackers. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Would a racer have been "detained" /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif for a top 5 finish even though one chooses not to apply for contingency in any shape or form? I'm just not about stickers.

darick
07-29-2003, 09:23 PM
I have learned something from all of the talk on this thread. Don't care much about the moaning and *****ing.....lets just race!! Big thanks to those who make it happen.

Lesson #1.
Bring ALL documentation to prove to whoever that the scooter is mine....don't want no copper taking it because some "jacksin" decides to do a surprise inspection. I suggest all take heed!!

See ya'll at TWS hopefully /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Barron Houston
07-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Does anybody know what gearing I should use for the race at Barber on an R6? /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

SMILEYMAN
07-30-2003, 08:35 AM
Van, the rapid turn over rate of riders is not due to internal friction of the organization. It has more to do with the nature of our sport. People drift in and out and some abandon it completely for one reason or another. It is a hard life on the sharp end of the sword.

Barron, not having been to Barber I would suggest using your TWS gearing as a baseline since it seems to be fast and open layout. Bring your tools and spares! Then post a hint to all of us not lucky enough to attend!

Bryan Norton
07-30-2003, 08:37 AM
Van - Some people have beat the 'turnover rate' to death. Charts and graphs, crazy ideas by other regions and clubs, but I have been involved long enough to understand the rider burnout symptoms.
In the shortest possible definition - Racing loses the 'fun' factor.

1) It gets too expensive/competitive. It was great to campaign that old, tired bike as an amatuer, but to be competitive in the expert ranks it takes top notch machinery. And Tires. Lots of Tires. The costs to remain competitive outweigh the enjoyment(and these riders are too much of a man to ride sissy bikes like the SV or a Motard)
2) Life events happen. Marraige and/or baby. Not everyone has a wife who understands what drives us to race.
3) Injury. Crash, Crash again. Bodywork and repair bills get outrageous. Personal injury either financially or physically prevents the ability to race

Thats pretty much the big three. There are also those teams who run the endurance series a year or two, then try one big run at the championship. After that, they go back to primarily sprint racing.

Contingency and cash payouts won't always help, and in fact can lower turnout. How? It increases the competitiveness. Let's raise the cash payout enough to draw in the top riders from other regions, then you will see even more experts hangup their hats.

So whats left? Keep banging on the 'fun' factor.
Create classes that are lower cost, and literally more fun. Vintage and classic riders have great camaraderie(sp). Motard is a pure blast, and Minis are a great way to keep racing on a budget.(If you've never been aboard an 80 you haven't truly experienced it)

Payout in the 'other classes' like the CMRA has. $500 per class doesn't sound like a lot, but it helps give something back to those who don't want to run the 600cc meatgrinder classes.

Be less aggressive about promoting experts. What many members are not aware of, is the CMRA promoted the fewest riders into expert status over the last two years than we have in some time. That naturally let the expert class dwindle, but we hope that the new batch that will move up this year will be primed and ready for what's to come. We knew the expert class would shrink for a few years, but the hope is that giving riders an extra year in the amateur class will better prepare them for expert status.

And continue to bring riders into the sport. Working with Lone Star Track Days has been great. They have been nothing but positive on their relationship with the CMRA and it has paid off. We have nothing against other track schools, even out of region, and nothing against our own racers school, but forming a relationship with LSTD has been very successful.

What you see today is a stronger club. Ask the experts who are racing how they like the grids. Light is not always a bad thing. They have plenty of green track for the first few laps, and don't have to worry about 'initiating' a first year expert who only raced 3 or 4 races the year before.

I would like to see more experts on the grids, but not 3 waves. Next year will be a banner year for the club. We are already working on many of the plans, and will announce things like class structure and rulebook well before the end of this season.

Joseph Browning
07-30-2003, 09:59 AM
great email Bryan- thanks for the insight!

Brooks Gremmels
07-30-2003, 10:27 AM
Judging from the grids this season and the membership roster, the club has certainly not weakened. Bryan's analysis seems pretty solid to me, including his suggestions for maintaining the fun factor.
I do believe there are a couple of other considerations. The first is the economy. Few people feel more secure in their jobs than they did a couple of years ago. The free-spending era of the high-tech market boom has left a hangover that effects disposable income decisions in a big way. The nationally sponsored race teams to the racer pulling a single rail trailer have been severlly impacted by this economic downturn.
The second thing to add might be that after a couple of years of roadracing, the "itch is scratched" for a lot of people. Most garages are littered with old exercise bikes, snow skis, maybe a mountain bike, a Harley, some woodworking tools and other cobweb-covered evidence of faded interests. Is racing differnt from other hobbies or interests in this regard?
The CMRA is strong and its future stronger. Interest in general will wax and wane, but the club runs a good show and is getting on more solid business footing all of the time. I'd be willing to bet that these same issues will be discussed twenty years from now.
Brooks

SMILEYMAN
07-30-2003, 10:50 AM
As usual, IMHO, Bryan and Brooks are making sense. And for the record I like the idea on the other thread about letting older second tier 600's run with the classics in their own "class"(lots of cheap bikes out there in this category). However there is a valid point to less classes helping overcrowded pits and practice sessions.
Good thing I have confidence in the current CMRA leadership to decide these class structure and organizational changes. I might have lost sleep or heaven forbid lost my focus on RACING! I honestly believe they are trying to make this club fun, cost and safety concious, stable, and family oriented.
Smiley

07-30-2003, 12:11 PM
A view of the Fun Factor from the back of the grid.

Bryan's points are valid.

I am an amature, in many ways. I can run "OK" on a fairly vacant track, but have seen too many (for me) crashes in traffic. I really don't like getting in there elbow to elbow in turn 1. (I am, however, taking steps to in fact be there ...you SV bullies better watch out!) Really, I'd like to see a discussion of what an "expert" really is. Under the "old scheme" I'd be one now, having won a class championship in 2002. But really, I'm NOT an expert roadracer at this point.

The CMRA has a charter; safe, fun, family oriented. Consider this a mission statement and it makes what would otherwise be a difficult choice a simple one.

There is a lot of classes (meatgrinders, crashfests, money classes, whatever) for those that want to go there. I think the key to the flow of new racers (those who's credit cards are not maxed out yet) is just what we've got... lighweight classes, an excellent endurance series, minis, motards. In fact, I think we'd be well served to put some kind of limit on the power available to 1st year racers.

The interesting challenge for us is, how do we introduce more people (potential racers, potential spectators, potential sponsors) to what we do. The fact is, you cannot explain, even with a good video tape, what actually happens out there. I've had the experience of bringing riders to spectate after having told them many stories from my own experiences only to have them comment "My God, I thought you were just a bunch of guys out riding fast, I never imagined what you were really doing out here. I've ridden fast, but this is UNBELIEVABLE!".

So, focus on our "mission statement" and be creative in how to market our whole package to the gearhead public!

I'd suggest this as a goal: get 1,000 spectators out on a Sunday.

Maybe we should all focus on fancy paint jobs then find a track where there are 4 left turns :-)

Chuck
CMRA 659 Am and Damn Proud Of It

Brooks Gremmels
07-30-2003, 12:14 PM
Don't worry, there will not be a greater number of races on Sunday next season. The idea is to have fewer.
Plans for the rulebook are coming along nicely as are other plans concerning contingencies and more flexability in the opportunities to race against competition from outside our club.
Keep your ideas for classes, race-day structure, rules and anything else you feel should be done to improve the club, coming. This is the time to make your wishes known. We have the chance right now to start pretty much with a clean sheet of paper. Let's get it right.
Brooks

panthercity
07-30-2003, 12:59 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Brooks Gremmels:
...garages are littered with old exercise bikes, snow skis, maybe a mountain bike, a Harley, some woodworking tools and other cobweb-covered evidence of faded interests. </div></div>How'd you get in my garage? Who let you in?

And no, I'm not gonna clean it up. Last time I did that, I found a sawdust-covered Hawk under some tarps and next thing I knew I was at TWS...

/ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Brooks Gremmels
07-30-2003, 02:28 PM
There you have it. As the geezers dust off their old bikes and ducktape their leathers together, the grids will swell. Or something like that.
Others like Matt Mashman, don't know when to park their bikes. They ride through the vissitudes and the cobwebs can't get a grip.
Brooks

David Hirsch
07-30-2003, 07:58 PM
Geezers? Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm!

E. Templet
07-30-2003, 08:32 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Bryan Norton:

1)<snip> (and these riders are too much of a man to ride sissy bikes like the SV or a Motard) <snip></div></div>I keep my pink shirt I purchased to ride in the "Jr. Expert Class" hanging right next to my Sissy bike. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I'm in good company though....Jack Giesecke. /ubbthreads/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif