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David Napier
06-17-2013, 02:57 PM
You know with all the cost a racer has to race why is there a fine for a missing transponder ?

I was told its the cost to go back and look at manual scoring, I mean with all the radio chatter broadcasted does it really cost $100 to push the button and ask manual scoring who finished in what place ?

Someone may only have the opportunity to race or finish that close to the front once in there life and because the poor guy couldnt afford to buy back his position for points or just to have it written that he podiumed should he not get the credit ? does it really cost the CMRA that much ? a few racers discussed this over the weekend and could see a small fine but really $100 really ?

Please explain to me the high cost of penalizing someone for a unintentional mistake during the madness of a race weekend which would result in taking something away that he clearly earned.

Frank Roberts
06-17-2013, 03:27 PM
Who was it Dave?

Jordan Pence
06-17-2013, 03:30 PM
ifthe
You know with all the cost a racer has to race why is there a fine for a missing transponder ?

I was told its the cost to go back and look at manual scoring, I mean with all the radio chatter broadcasted does it really cost $100 to push the button and ask manual scoring who finished in what place ?

Someone may only have the opportunity to race or finish that close to the front once in there life and because the poor guy couldnt afford to buy back his position for points or just to have it written that he podiumed should he not get the credit ? does it really cost the CMRA that much ? a few racers discussed this over the weekend and could see a small fine but really $100 really ?

Please explain to me the high cost of penalizing someone for a unintentional mistake during the madness of a race weekend which would result in taking something away that he clearly earned.

if the price is too low then more people will forgo using a transponder and then it could actually be costly for the cmra. this is just my though. cmra.rents transponders for only 50$ which is pretty inexpensive.

David Napier
06-17-2013, 05:05 PM
I could understand a multiple offender I've done it twice now so maybe the fine goes up ?
It's very easy to do and I'm sure it happens to others, but to reach in your pocket and trying to make it hurt doesn't seem right.

I have no issue with the rental fee and very happy they do not require you to buy one prior to racing.

Kasey Lewis
06-17-2013, 05:41 PM
I could understand a multiple offender I've done it twice now so maybe the fine goes up ?
It's very easy to do and I'm sure it happens to others, but to reach in your pocket and trying to make it hurt doesn't seem right.

I have no issue with the rental fee and very happy they do not require you to buy one prior to racing.

Only happened to me once, I won't make that mistake again.....and I think that's part of the point. The other is basically it would be rampant if it were $20, you'd have multiple racers per heat running without them, and then you need 2-3 manual scorers to try to keep up. I feel for you though, it was tough turning over that cash for a 19th place.

Jennifer Millsap
06-17-2013, 05:58 PM
I have no idea about the fine, so I won't speak on that. However, since this isn't your first occurrence, develop a plan so you won't forget. We put painters tape across Brian's ignition/starter switch with the word transponder written on it in thick black sharpie. That way, when he goes to start the bike, he gets reminded to move it.

Alan Etheredge
06-17-2013, 07:04 PM
NOT POSTING AS A CMRA OFFICIAL

Some background....

The rule you reference was instituted in the 2008 Rule Book. The dollar amount has no relationship to a "cost" incurred to reinstate the laps; it is an amount determined by the (then current) BoD to serve as an effective incentive to encourage racers to comply with the requirements necessary to run races efficiently using the electronic scoring system. My recall is that at the time the rule was considered and finally implemented, BoD discussion ran the gamut from "no/non-functioning transponder=no points period" to "reinstate the laps at no charge" (the final rule being a consensus determination).

The 'hassle and time' associated with reinstating laps varies depending on the nature of the failure (wrong transponder is often easier to fix; no/not working/not pinging the loop situations require the tedious task of reviewing manual score sheets). The associated delays are an 'unfair' (my personal choice of words) burden on all race entrants since the final race result is delayed pending the calculation of lap reinstatement. The process is sometimes delayed quite a bit as the involved staff must continue to manage the ongoing race-day activities while doing the additional work of calculating the reinstatement.

I have not recorded numeric data but I can assure you that the incidence of transponder rule violations dropped very significantly within the first year or so of the new rule in 2008 and the incidence of “repeat failure” is now very low (with a few notable individual exceptions that I’ll not name). That was not at all the case before the current rule was imstituted.

In my role working the registration desk where these matters are handled, I’ve also observed that the vast majority of ‘offenders’ react along the lines of “darn, shame on me” and quickly decide to either ‘pay-up with a smile’ (mumbling something along the lines of “...sure won’t make that mistake again...”) or decide to forego the points, (again mumbling something along the lines of “...sure won’t make that mistake again...”).

I’m told, though can’t “name names,” that some clubs no longer have backup manual scoring so no ping=no laps, period. I’ll also point out that the majority of errors/oversights that racers make have a “permanent and unrecoverable” impact on their race results. It strikes me as cool that the BoD allows an option to recover from this particular lapse in racer performance.

Wil Kitchens
06-17-2013, 08:14 PM
If you want a cheap or free hobby, motorcycle racing is not for you.

If you forget to put air in your tires, you might not finish or win the race. If you forget to put gas in your tank, you might not finish or win the race. In some organizations across the country, if you forget your transponder it's "Too bad, so sad, try again next time."

Don't want to pay a fine? Don't forget your transponder. Pretty simple. I'm absent-minded as can be, I've made it to MULTIPLE events without even remembering to bring my darn leathers! Make a pre-race checklist, be thorough, and double- and triple- check to make sure you've got everything as it should be before you go out on the track. If you're scrambling last minute to make the grid, there are many FAR more treacherous things you could forget other than your transponder. Be thankful that this organization even offers you the opportunity to buy back your laps, ESPECIALLY if you won a race. How'd you feel if you forgot your transponder and you DIDN'T have an opportunity to buy your laps back?

If there wasn't the potential threat of a penalty for forgetting a transponder, I have a feeling half the field wouldn't even BOTHER to put them on their bikes... in time manual scoring would have to up their manpower - and with that would come higher entry fees in order to compensate the additional employees/workers...and with higher entry fees come people whining and crying about higher entry fees.

I hear checkers is a lot more budget-friendly.

David Napier
06-17-2013, 08:17 PM
Thank you Alan, theres a lot of ways to go about it and maybe its time to look at this again with a thought on just how tough it is today with finances. Hell I would love to see fuel back at 2008 prices.

Bill Klindworth
06-17-2013, 09:11 PM
I like the "tape a note" on the bike idea !
I put a note on my truck's instrument cluster so I didn't forget to bring my transponder with me to the races
Makes sense to do the same on the bike !

Guess it's kinda like making sure you have gas in the tank & remembering to put on your back protector before zipping up your leathers.
We've all made simple mistakes like this before & felt bad about it.....it helps us to remember the next time.....

P.S. Brian could tell the story about how I forgot my leathers one time.....
Haven't forgotten them since then
....of course my friends help by occasionally kidding me about it ! :)

David Proler
06-17-2013, 10:05 PM
If you want a cheap or free hobby, motorcycle racing is not for you.

I hear checkers is a lot more budget-friendly.

Truer words have never been spoken.

David Proler
06-17-2013, 10:05 PM
I like the "tape a note" on the bike idea !


Brian is a legend in a millipede way.

marcus mcbain
06-18-2013, 09:06 AM
We use the "Got Transponder?" on a duct tape strip and we make sure it goes on the key of the bikes. The only time we did not do it this year...I paid 100.00. It works.

Kasey Lewis
06-18-2013, 09:10 AM
We use the "Got Transponder?" on a duct tape strip and we make sure it goes on the key of the bikes. The only time we did not do it this year...I paid 100.00. It works.

Works, and works well. I run multiple bikes, got to have it!

Brandon Orr
06-18-2013, 09:27 AM
Now I am worried I will forget it sometime or it will break/stop working.
I know I won't be winning any races so you can opt out of the payment and not place?
Which is fine with me cause I could use the 100$ for a new transponder, those aren't cheap either.

Nancy Selleck
06-18-2013, 09:34 AM
Now I am worried I will forget it sometime or it will break/stop working.
I know I won't be winning any races so you can opt out of the payment and not place?
Which is fine with me cause I could use the 100$ for a new transponder, those aren't cheap either.

You don't have to "opt out"...it's not required that you have your laps reinstated. But for those who are working on championships or want to place high enough to receive their contingency awards, it is an option to save the championship or contingency awards.

As Alan mentioned, there are other organizations which don't offer that option. You forget your transponder and you are out of luck...there are no manual scoring sheets to use to recreate the race.

James Newton
06-18-2013, 09:43 AM
We had to pay the fine once last year when we had back-to-back races, and I forgot to switch the transponder over. While I hated paying the $100, I am glad the option was there so Jay would get his points!!

David Proler
06-18-2013, 09:55 AM
What do we do if our transponder isn't working in the middle of a race? This happened to me in race 20 at NOLA. The results only showed me completing one lap when I finished the race. I would have protested within the allotted window, but I also had to get my Prov Nov paper turned in within the same time frame. My transponder was purchased new at ECR and was fully charged as of Sunday morning.

Walter was nice enough to listen to my issue and look at my transponder flashing green. I'd like to receive my points because it will be quite some time before I can pass some of those people again in dry conditions.

Thanks.

Kasey Lewis
06-18-2013, 09:59 AM
I'd like to receive my points because it will be quite some time before I can pass some of those people again in dry conditions.

Thanks.

Or in my case never! :nana: I had a blast in the rain race though, every body had to slow down to my pace!

Nancy Selleck
06-18-2013, 10:34 AM
What do we do if our transponder isn't working in the middle of a race? This happened to me in race 20 at NOLA. The results only showed me completing one lap when I finished the race. I would have protested within the allotted window, but I also had to get my Prov Nov paper turned in within the same time frame. My transponder was purchased new at ECR and was fully charged as of Sunday morning.

Walter was nice enough to listen to my issue and look at my transponder flashing green. I'd like to receive my points because it will be quite some time before I can pass some of those people again in dry conditions.

Thanks.

It's the same thing for transponders that quit working or fall off in the middle of the race. It is the rider's responsibility to make sure it's working and securely mounted in the proper location on the bike. You have 30 minutes to protest ANY results or grids after they are posted. After that, it's too late.

Your Prov Nov license just needs to be signed off at the end of the weekend. There is no 30 minute window for that.

David Proler
06-18-2013, 10:39 AM
Your Prov Nov license just needs to be signed off at the end of the weekend. There is no 30 minute window for that.

Well I'm glad I won't have to worry about that anymore. :)

Walter Walker
06-18-2013, 11:57 AM
Thank you Alan, theres a lot of ways to go about it and maybe its time to look at this again with a thought on just how tough it is today with finances .
I disagree.


Hell I would love to see fuel back at 2008 prices.
So your saying we should raise the fine to $200?

Alan Etheredge
06-18-2013, 01:21 PM
Folks, please READ and KNOW Rule Book section "3.12 Transponders"

In there you will find the options available to you for most every circumstance of transponder failure/omission etc, etc.

HINTS (but ya gotta read to find the answers ....)

++ There are circumstances when you do NOT have 30 minutes after the results are posted to reinstate lost laps, you MUST do it within 30 minutes of being notified of the failure (I had a 'refresher' on that one this weekend ;-)

++ There are circumstances when you cannot reinstate laps even if you had a charged transponder mounted on your bike

Note also that per the last paragraph of section "6.3 Team 60" (page 27) there is no option to reinstate laps for the Team 60 race - if you have transponder malfuntions in that one you are out of luck.

David Napier
06-18-2013, 01:53 PM
I disagree.


So your saying we should raise the fine to $200?


Imagine you disagreeing when the moneys not out of your pocket and going to the org, funny huh

Linz Leard
06-18-2013, 03:33 PM
Imagine you disagreeing when the moneys not out of your pocket and going to the org, funny huh

Rules are for everyone else? I wouldn't call it funny, but I disagree with you. I've forgotten my transponder and raced. I've raced with the wrong transponder. I protested and paid to get those laps back. I'm staff and I still had to play by the rules. You'd think I'd know better but I'm just as rushed and hurried and every other racer. You know, now that I think about it, I'm likely more hurried and rushed than you and the other racers so I have more of an excuse and I still don't get a bye.

Eric Falt
06-18-2013, 05:16 PM
There was a time when you could not buy back your points. It was back to back races, in the rush when my helpers were gone, I podiumed, and got NO points for a podium finish. That cost me a Championship that year, which cost me more then $100 , that I would have gladly paid .

Patt Hagens
06-18-2013, 09:00 PM
Took me twice to remember... I mow do what Brian and them do. Tape on my dash so when I go to start I know..LOL

Brian Millsap
06-18-2013, 11:26 PM
P.S. Brian could tell the story about how I forgot my leathers one time.....
Haven't forgotten them since then
....of course my friends help by occasionally kidding me about it ! :)

That was funny as hell! Wife was NOT happy about having to meet us half way either. lol You are probably still paying for that.


Brian is a legend in a millipede way.

:whack:


I will say this about the CMRA. The rules are the rules and they really don't budge, bend, forget, wavier or change them for anyone. If they're a bit harsh, they're harsh for everyone. The same rules apply to everyone, no exceptions. Makes it really fair.

David Napier
06-19-2013, 12:48 AM
I dont give a Sh** about paying the fine to get the points back but its just to much.

Alan Etheredge
06-19-2013, 12:52 AM
Just curious, David ... what specific amount do you think would serve the purpose of inciting folks to work very hard to come up with a personal system that makes them comply with the transponder rule consistently?


(and I'll share the observation that MANY racers drop $30 on avoidable post entry fees every race event without batting an eye; another bunch rent a $420 transponder at 10x$50=$500 for the entire season year after year)

David Napier
06-19-2013, 01:09 AM
I would be on a fine per incident, start at $25 then work up from there.

this would help with the learning curve, believe me I know about the transponder and will take measures to make sure it doesnt happen again, the CMRA is suppose to help us not punish us.

Alan Etheredge
06-19-2013, 01:45 AM
I would be on a fine per incident, start at $25 then work up from there....

That'd require a readily accessible database in registration for tracking racer infractions. I hope the BoD doesn't add that on top of everything else we gotta do in registration for race management at an event.




.....this would help with the learning curve, believe me I know about the transponder and will take measures to make sure it doesnt happen again, the CMRA is suppose to help us not punish us.

OK, shifting to your terms .... as a parent you certainly know that "punishment" is a part of the toolkit for "helping" a person learn. The "help" is also a clearly stated rule and the option to forego the "punishment".

You mentioned that this was your second time at this particular lesson, so it seems that the first-time "punishment" at $100 was not an effective tool in your case. Considering that it's apparently taken two "punishments" at $100 per to incite you to "take measures to make sure it doesnt happen again" (sic), it'd have taken quite a few "punishments" starting at $25 per/escalating to incite you to come up with the necessary personal system of transponder management. Maybe it's good I don't have kids (other than racers) ..... I'm not that patient as a teacher.

I've flogged this enough, I'm sure the BoD reads all of the forum and will consider your plea and a rule revision if they think it has merit. I personally appreciate your participation and look forward to seeing your friendly face at MSR (with a transponder mounted ;-) !

David Napier
06-19-2013, 10:45 AM
Believe me the $25 is just as hard to swallow as the $100, I did not pay for the 2nd infraction it just wasnt possible on top of the $1500 I had already spent for the weekend, when you have nothing left to spend its hard to pay so I have nothing to prove that I won the race, no points nothing that says I even raced. Im not going to explain the situation that led up to the race but lets just say there was a lot going on in our pits prior to the race, It just kills me that the org would rather let a racer loose his credit over a buck, but it is what it is and Ill do what Jenn said and tape a note to the tank next to the others I already have.

Ted Phillips
06-19-2013, 11:51 AM
No one can take away the reality, memories, and photographs (if any) of you doing well in that race. The fine cannot take any of that away either, nor can it prevent you from racing without a transponder in the future. The fine is a deterrent for operating outside of the efficient system that is in place to score the most racers as quickly as possible while reducing the labor involved, nothing more. If you want to be scored without a transponder there is an additional cost involved, for reasons outlined by Alan above.

It's not that no one empathizes with your situation (I certainly do because I've been in the same boat, and I'm going to be broke after fixing my bike from last weekend), it's that the more racers that race without a transponder the less capable the club is to put on well-run races.

Sean Gurevich
06-19-2013, 01:35 PM
Lowering the cost of retreiving manual scoring data devalues the effort put in by manual scorers. Otherwise, it shifts the burden on every racer making it more of a public service. As a club member, I would rather not bear more burden of paying for manual scoring when the electronic scoring is so reliable for most, including myself.

David Branyon
06-19-2013, 08:05 PM
I have to agree with Ted on this one. I look at the scoring as icing on the cake. The main thing is *I* know that I did it. Did the ironbutt thing a few years ago, 1000 miles in 24 hrs. Kept receipts and thought about sending it all in to get the certificate and license plate bracket thingie. Then thought, what the heck, what do I need that stuff for? I know I did it, and that's all that matters. Don't need to prove anything.

You did it. Trophy (address label) notwithstanding... you did it! Won a sprint race! Officially or not doesn't really matter, imo. I *never* did that, and I'm now in my 14th year of racing (admittedly mostly endurance but still). Congrats!!!

Linz Leard
06-19-2013, 08:38 PM
Lowering the cost of retreiving manual scoring data devalues the effort put in by manual scorers. Otherwise, it shifts the burden on every racer making it more of a public service. As a club member, I would rather not bear more burden of paying for manual scoring when the electronic scoring is so reliable for most, including myself.

While we're on the subject of wishful thinking, how about everyone check their grid positions so they don't have to ask me when they get to the grid where they belong (and hold up the start of the race). What? You say that that checking individual grid positions is mentioned at at every rider's meeting before the races and all one has to do is glance at a piece of paper taped to a structure somewhere near pit out? Well, then, what need do I have standing on a hot grid? (Hint: It has more to do with making sure you're lined up in the correct spot.)

Furthermore, what about tech? Do I really need to tell someone how to safety wire something that's clearly specified in the rule book? Or apply numbers correctly? Must I repeatedly point out to someone that just changed their oil and filter a few minutes ago needs to go back and apply safety wire to oil drain, oil fill and oil filter? And do I always have to chase people down to sign their tech form or fill in their VIN? What's that? I do? Absurd! Ha! I laugh at you. Nonsense! These are rules and the rules are clear - no one misses them or gets them wrong. EVER! I would rather not bear more burden of the human element making itself so evident every race weekend, but, well, here we are. Also, electronic systems never fail (like that one time at Oak Hill and Cresson).

When you solve the transponder/scoring problem, please solve these problems, too.

Thank you in advance -

Kasey Lewis
06-19-2013, 08:50 PM
....this thread has just been derailed! But in a good way.....

But I did follow the rules when I forgot to check my grid, I rolled up nice and easy behind all the other racers and waited for the lights.

And personally, I pre-tech before I tech. It's my butt if my brake caliper falls off coasting into T1 at TWS, not yours. I treat tech as a last line of defense, not a first.

Linz Leard
06-19-2013, 09:05 PM
....this thread has just been derailed! But in a good way.....

But I did follow the rules when I forgot to check my grid, I rolled up nice and easy behind all the other racers and waited for the lights.

And personally, I pre-tech before I tech. It's my butt if my brake caliper falls off coasting into T1 at TWS, not yours. I treat tech as a last line of defense, not a first.

You're a good man. You remember my motto - "If you don't know where you're gridded when you roll up to the grid, you always know where you are - in the very back."

On a related note, I got a speeding ticket today. According to the officer I was doing 11 mph over the limit. I told him that I am not a repeat offender and that a smaller ticket would help me financially while reinforcing my learning the traffic rules. I explained that tickets should be on a sliding scale and, if I get another for the same infraction, my fine should go up a little each time. The officer looked at me with his head cocked to one side and then smiled and said, "Sir, I wanna be there when you tell that to the judge."

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled "How to solve the human condition" discussion.

Wil Kitchens
06-19-2013, 10:21 PM
You're a good man. You remember my motto - "If you don't know where you're gridded when you roll up to the grid, you always know where you are - in the very back."

On a related note, I got a speeding ticket today. According to the officer I was doing 11 mph over the limit. I told him that I am not a repeat offender and that a smaller ticket would help me financially while reinforcing my learning the traffic rules. I explained that tickets should be on a sliding scale and, if I get another for the same infraction, my fine should go up a little each time. The officer looked at me with his head cocked to one side and then smiled and said, "Sir, I wanna be there when you tell that to the judge."

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled "How to solve the human condition" discussion.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma0mi8LRjg1qbfzh4.jpg

dean webster
06-20-2013, 09:32 AM
You're a good man. You remember my motto - "If you don't know where you're gridded when you roll up to the grid, you always know where you are - in the very back."

On a related note, I got a speeding ticket today. According to the officer I was doing 11 mph over the limit. I told him that I am not a repeat offender and that a smaller ticket would help me financially while reinforcing my learning the traffic rules. I explained that tickets should be on a sliding scale and, if I get another for the same infraction, my fine should go up a little each time. The officer looked at me with his head cocked to one side and then smiled and said, "Sir, I wanna be there when you tell that to the judge."

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled "How to solve the human condition" discussion.

Good one, Linz. By the way, the dog ate the safety wire on my calipers. It had nothing to do with fitting new tyres. In regard to the transponder thing.......if you forgot to put it on, it's your mistake. Luckily, there is a safety net. The safety net costs money. I made a mistake on my taxes. Unfortunately, I did not have a $100 option for my error. The IRS are a bit more strict than CMRA....

Linz Leard
06-20-2013, 09:45 AM
Good one, Linz. By the way, the dog ate the safety wire on my calipers. It had nothing to do with fitting new tyres. In regard to the transponder thing.......if you forgot to put it on, it's your mistake. Luckily, there is a safety net. The safety net costs money. I made a mistake on my taxes. Unfortunately, I did not have a $100 option for my error. The IRS are a bit more strict than CMRA....

Your dog a pit bull? lol

True story. Mine for sure and yours, well, I'm more certain now than ever.

Michael Klesel
06-20-2013, 10:54 AM
If you want a cheap or free hobby, motorcycle racing is not for you.


If there wasn't the potential threat of a penalty for forgetting a transponder, I have a feeling half the field wouldn't even BOTHER to put them on their bikes... in time manual scoring would have to up their manpower - and with that would come higher entry fees in order to compensate the additional employees/workers...and with higher entry fees come people whining and crying about higher entry fees.

I hear checkers is a lot more budget-friendly.


Bingo!