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Thread: Going electric?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Kyle Fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dugger View Post
    At COTA? That's ~40 miles. Impressive really.
    The FIM didn't differentiate by track - http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2018/0...etition/249159. But they are always free to adjust as the season goes. It only shows that the teams and FIM believe the bikes can race full out for 10 laps. It'll be fun to see.

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Dennis King's Avatar
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    FWIW the TT zero guys can't go full throttle for the entire run on the mountain course. Also, with the current motogp rules those bikes can't make a whole race at full power with the fuel limits currently in place. so motogp/FIM is already used to programing and throttling back the bikes to make sure they complete the race, adapting that to electric bikes with help from the TTzero and other data shouldn't be all that hard. For reference, the fastest lap of the TTzero the first year in 2010 that was 100% privateer teams was a 23:22; since then professional team/sponsors like Mugen have entered bikes and the record this year was 18:34. The lap records for 1000 and 600cc bikes are 16:42 and 17:31

    The biggest hurdle will be battery power and heat late race. As the battery voltage drops during the race you'll still be asking for the same power to the motors, less volts with the same watts means higher amperage, higher amperage means more heat and more cooling required of the battery and motor. In the big Tesla a fully charge battery is about 400V and can provide 450kW to the motors which is 1,125amps. At the lower stages of battery (10-15%) its around 340v. If the motors are commanding the same 450kW then you now have 1,323amps. One of two things happens, the battery overheats or the motor overheats (or both.) In the case of the Tesla Model S and X it's the motors and the computer limits the the amount of power at low states of charge and prolonged full throttle applications, Regardless of car/bike or type of motor they will all face this issue and need to deal with additional cooling and/or reduced power in the later stages of the race.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Jim Dugger's Avatar
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    ... and for practicality purposes, we of course aren't even talking about the equipment required to make an ordinary club level race day or even track day work with one of these bikes. Professionally, I'm sure they are using the big-track garage power between sessions, but for us, it's going to mean ~10kwh generators running near full-tilt in the paddock for charging.
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    ...or bring a few spare batteries. Problem solved. E is the wave of the present!
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Jason Chahin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis King View Post
    FWIW the TT zero guys can't go full throttle for the entire run on the mountain course. Also, with the current motogp rules those bikes can't make a whole race at full power with the fuel limits currently in place. so motogp/FIM is already used to programing and throttling back the bikes to make sure they complete the race, adapting that to electric bikes with help from the TTzero and other data shouldn't be all that hard. For reference, the fastest lap of the TTzero the first year in 2010 that was 100% privateer teams was a 23:22; since then professional team/sponsors like Mugen have entered bikes and the record this year was 18:34. The lap records for 1000 and 600cc bikes are 16:42 and 17:31

    The biggest hurdle will be battery power and heat late race. As the battery voltage drops during the race you'll still be asking for the same power to the motors, less volts with the same watts means higher amperage, higher amperage means more heat and more cooling required of the battery and motor. In the big Tesla a fully charge battery is about 400V and can provide 450kW to the motors which is 1,125amps. At the lower stages of battery (10-15%) its around 340v. If the motors are commanding the same 450kW then you now have 1,323amps. One of two things happens, the battery overheats or the motor overheats (or both.) In the case of the Tesla Model S and X it's the motors and the computer limits the the amount of power at low states of charge and prolonged full throttle applications, Regardless of car/bike or type of motor they will all face this issue and need to deal with additional cooling and/or reduced power in the later stages of the race.
    This is great info, thanks Dennis. Was not aware of the heating issues.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Dennis King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dugger View Post
    ... and for practicality purposes, we of course aren't even talking about the equipment required to make an ordinary club level race day or even track day work with one of these bikes. Professionally, I'm sure they are using the big-track garage power between sessions, but for us, it's going to mean ~10kwh generators running near full-tilt in the paddock for charging.
    Irrelevant to have a big generator since the bike only has a 3kw charger, so a standard generator would charge from 0-100% in about 3.5hrs. but that just points out the issues of how these batteries charge. They may take the full 3kw at the beginning but that will slowly taper around the last 10%. Like Josh said the spare battery would be best if it were ever feasible. I'd be interested to see someone bring one out for a session on Friday just to see how they perform, there's no clutch or transmission so it's all in the throttle, and hoping the computer controls everything .

    The bike mentioned earlier is a permanent magnet motor so little worry about overheating and puts out 145hp and 148tq (from 0 RPM.) With a 107kw motor and 11.7kwh battery the bike you could go from 100-0% in 6.5 minutes at full throttle assuming nothing overheats, I have no idea what the average throttle usage is over the course of a lap but you'd need to average 50% to make a race at Cresson then get a push back to the pits. Use of regenerative braking could extend the range 30-50% and might provide the bit it needs to make it. The MotoE bikes have a 90% bigger battery then the road version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Chahin View Post
    This is great info, thanks Dennis. Was not aware of the heating issues.
    Telsa actually uses the air conditioner to cool the battery and motors. if you're ever walking by a car at a supercharger and it sounds like you walked into a server room it's the fans and A/C cooling the batteries while pumping up to 120kw into the packs. On the performance models, Tesla has a "max power" mode where they use the heater to warm up the battery and lower the electrical resistance, and use the A/C to cool the motors which allows more power output and staves off the overheating issue the 3 phase motors are known for. This is a hot topic in the EV crowd and referred to as active cooling. The Nissan Leaf does not have active cooling so if the battery is cold in winter you get crap range, and in the summers the 100+ weather overcooks the batteries over time, Nissan settled a lawsuit after a bunch of people in Arizona had batteries failing way too early. They run best around 105-113 degrees but if it's already 100 out (or 115+ in AZ) then the battery can quickly overheat and power reduced to try and save it. For the average person all the EV 'problems' don't exist, but they do exist on some level and it'll just take time to solve them.
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  7. #27
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    AHRMA has been running an extremely successful E bike series for the last 5 years. Most sprints are 6-8 laps depending on the venue and managing your resources is part of the fun.
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